George Vrotsos
Level 7 Valued Member
Is AXE snatches twice per week and KBSF LCCJ twice per week a realistic plan or is that chasing too much at once?
Kettlebell Kettlebell AXE - general discussion
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Greg H
Level 5 Valued Member
Love this post. So how will you work AXE into your current routine? Two days of AXE and two days of KBSF?By the way, I love that the first sessions are designed to find the right bell (instead of something like a sprint test, as in Q&D). "Testing" as training. Reminds me of @Steve W.'s opinion that the right Q&D weight is the heaviest one that allow you to get to 100 powerful reps with the actual Q&D timing.
I also like that the book reiterates a lot of informations from articles, expanding on them and giving them context. Sometimes it gives nuance to some general rules (for example, why deloads or stopping when speed goes down are good ideas), and sometimes there a surprises (like going heavier or lighter within the A+A framework, instead of the classic sets of 5 for at least 20 minutes).
I was a bit afraid that the book would make me doubt my current training setup (KBSF with LCCJs + EES + jogging), but luckily that did not happen. There are a few training ideas that I consider as add-ons (like glycolytic jolts, using more step loading and then deloading by feel, or adding some type of Metal Heart training), but otherwise AXE has given me a feeling of confirmation and clarity, strengthening my confidence and commitment (the 4Cs, apparently)
rwleonard
Level 7 Valued Member
In the "Best Ever" article, in response to a similar question, Pavel suggested holding one steady while advancing the other on a rotating, two week or so, basis. In the new AXE book, Pavel also mentions the possibly of doing two swing sessions and two jerk sessions per week.
If four such sessions prove too much, maybe do two sessions of the one your are currently advancing and one maintenance session of the other?
I would be interested in knowing what you try and how it goes.
Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
I suppose the likely stop sign I'd run into would be fatigue in the lower back. If you recover well I wouldn't see why not.
My guess is the hinging volume might get a bit steep, at some points in the progressions.
If you're confident with the jerk, that'd be a good opportunity for more upper body training. (I'm thinking of trying explosive pushups myself, but also, jerks)
If you recover well, then good. But I think the sheer volume is the first parameter I'd have to contend with being out of spec for my weekly recovery abilities.
Your recovery mileage may vary.
P. S. And what @rwleonard said.
Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
Doing the volumes prescribed in AXE on the daily is actually rather large, and is a recipe for slamming into a stop sign, rather than gently tapping it. One that I've employed in the past and regretted after.
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Pete L
Level 6 Valued Member
Based on both the previous answers and that the jerk option is specifically offered as a complement, I would conclude "yes".
Personnaly, I'm pretty sure my lower back wouldn't cope.
Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
The biggest difference I see is the force requirement.
Plan 060 is designed around lower force and will emphasize it's effects on the intermediate type 2A fibers.
Axe training at higher force emphasizes its effects on the fast type 2X fibers.
So, in a way, it depends on where the bottleneck for your performance goals lies.
Hung
Level 8 Valued Member
What about improving capacity in the meet day? Like have enough energy to grind out the 3nd attempts of each lifts if? Can AXE help with that, or that kind of condition is too specific and should be main focused by pwl work (having SBD day, for instance)?
rwleonard
Level 7 Valued Member
Maybe this, if DL's are your priority:
Or something along these lines, if AXE is more important to you:
I would guess that the higher volume of AXE would be less than optimal as DL assistance.
Kettlebells and Deadlifting: A Match Made in Heaven? | StrongFirst
There are many excellent exercises with a kettlebell, but I have stuck to the two-hand swing. As an assistance exercise for deadlifting it is amazing.
www.strongfirst.com
Or something along these lines, if AXE is more important to you:
Q&D + Minimalist Deadlifts | StrongFirst
Ultralow deadlift volume can be enough to maintain, and likely improve, your pull. Here is how to add minimalist deadlifts to Q&D training.
www.strongfirst.com
I would guess that the higher volume of AXE would be less than optimal as DL assistance.
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mightstone2k
Level 6 Valued Member
Getting the teachers on board with SF methods would be more effective than marketing a book at the students themselves. But that’s something that could work wonders in the next generation(s).
Pavel
CEO
Thank you for your kind words, Bauer!
The difference between AXE and Metal Heart is blurry.
Type I fibers do all work up to ~25% of max strength.
Type IIA fibers start getting recruited at ~ 25% and IIX ~50%.
At ~80% all available IIX are presumably recruited, which is why it make it the lower border for AXE.
Of course, some type IIX fibers are already recruited and get trained once you pass the 50% mark. Thus, at, say 65%, you are training all your type IIA and some of the IIX.
The reason the Kettlebells StrongFirst C&J protocol is so demanding on cardio is not the predominant use of IIA but the total muscle mass involved in the C&J.
Yes.
Fine either way.
Ask Kenneth or Derek; they have optimized weekly AGT schedules for mountaineers, etc.
Bauer
Level 8 Valued Member
For the time being, probably not much. I will continue with 2x KBSF, 2x Jogging, 4x EES (usually a warmup for my conditioning/endurance). Maybe I will add a light glycolytic session every two weeks, something like the Time Simple, but with a much lighter weight.
I also consider replacing one session of running with Step Ups during winter.
If my time and recovery allows, I might add a single AXE session per week. But that is not likely.
I will probably do 4 more weeks of KBSF + EES, then 8 Weeks of Glycolytic Power repeats with Double LCCJs + EES, then 8 weeks of Built Strong... and then back to KBSF, or to AXE H2H Swings + Victorious.
Pavel
CEO
Nate, the recovery plus the point of diminishing returns.
Bauer
Level 8 Valued Member
Thanks a lot, sir!
Pavel
CEO
Georgiaoutdoors, yes. The books is nowhere close to being out and it will not be as detailed as All-Terrain Conditioning seminar that I strongly recommend.
Pavel
CEO
3letterslong, it is true for all types of training. As a friend of mine has put it, your body is like a house. You can fix it up but as soon as you stop working on it, it will start falling apart. ;]
Pavel
CEO
Onlyisometrics, we discuss that at the Strong Endurance seminar.
The only applications that make sense for isometric AGT are sport specific, such as training climbers' grip. Due to impeded circulation and slow recovery, isometric endurance work has too many down sides to be done for GPP.
Use isometric training for strength—and make sure it is a small % of your strength training. Why is outside the scope of this thread.
Pavel
CEO
Thank you, Paules. I am all for it, in moderation.
As in budgeting your money, everything is a tradeoff. A moderate amount of steady state aerobics will improve your health and recovery; too much will make you weaker and will not be healthy either as free radical damage increases with exercise duration, even aerobic exercise.
Pavel
CEO
Guardian7, a cool idea. If they come to us, we will help.