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5/3/1 - Back from the Dead(lift)

Philippe Geoffrion said:
I'm not sure how long it takes actually. I'd say for the set of 12 about a minute, and maybe even similar for the 20 reps as the weight is lighter. However, I can't say actually. It doesn't really feel that long as time ceases to exist to me in those moments. I should film to check but I just started at my new gym, and it's a bit crowded. I don't want to have to worry about someone stepping in front of my phone during a set, or have to be rude and be like "hey people, who've been going her longer than I, everybody watch out I'm filming".

As for breaths, it's usually one until the last few reps. With the 20 rep squats, I usually slow down to a few breaths at 15 reps and with the 12 rep squats, usually at 9 reps it seems. So about 75 % into the set. I think part of the benefit of high rep squats, is the length. Holding the bar on your back may "help" you recover for the last rep, but you're also usually gasping for air...with a considerable amount of weight on your back. I think this was the "secret" in old time bodybuilding you refer to. That "breathing" under a load with a posture that back then was a little more pretty, as the squats they recommended for 20 rep squats were usually with no more then BW on the barbell and a higher bar position. Usually, the breaths would be large long inhales and exhales, and this was thought to "expand" the ribcage, along with pullovers done between sets. I'm sure it has some pretty profound effects on lung strength, as you are not merely catching your breath but taking in large inhales.

True, holding the bar on the back may allow us to grind more, but in the deadlift it's better....we get to use the floor! And in the press, our shoulders like a front squat with considerable less weight or at arms length in the bench. Alas, smaller muscle groups are responsible for the latter two lifts and the press/dl don't get the benefit of stretch reflex, at least for the first rep for presses. I don't bounce my deads.

I also note the when I do pretty heavy/low rep sets, I tend to take my time between reps, as do many other powerlifters I've trained with. they'll hit one grueling rep, breath and rest at the top for a moment, hit another slow grind and after I assume they're about to re-rack, they'll stand there for moments...breathing...waiting...jeopardy theme...and hit one last all out rep. So in essence, the last few reps of my high rep sets aren't so dissimilar to a regular set of heavy 3's or 5's. In my case, I think I get more tired in the lungs, then in the legs. I have a loooong squat, and I think I'd shortchange myself the strength gains by allowing my breath to be the limiting factor.

I also think another benefit of 20 rep squats is not only TUT, but the mental toughness aspect. It's quite grueling. I think the lower body seems to respond better to high rep work for some reason as well. I won't get into fast/slow twitch stuff, but high rep lower body work has been working pretty well for me. Also, one can't discount how hard the core and back must work throughout this whole thing, even at the top at "rest".
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Sounds like our ways around the high rep squats are pretty much alike.

McCallum, the man, writes about the load: "You've got to work up into the 300 to 400 pound range for anything really spectacular.". I love a clear cut challenge like that.

The hard 20 rep squats really do build character. Everything's a breeze after them.
 
Antti said:
Sounds like our ways around the high rep squats are pretty much alike.

McCallum, the man, writes about the load: "You've got to work up into the 300 to 400 pound range for anything really spectacular.". I love a clear cut challenge like that.

The hard 20 rep squats really do build character. Everything's a breeze after them.
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Man, 300 - 400 twenty rep squats....Here I come! I really do love them. Out of all the other training days, the end of the squat workout is where I really feel the most accomplished.
 
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Day 3 Week 3

Deadlifts (Sumo)
135 x 5, 225 x 5, 265 x 5, 300 x 5, 335 x 8 (P.r. Set)
265 x 5 x 5

Assistance
4-5 rounds
Curls- 25 lbs x 12,12,12,12
Dips- 15,15,15,15
B.S.S 15,15,15,15

Was a bit tired today. Deadlifts weren't the best, my legs were still a bit tired from my heavy squat day, and I felt my back working a bit too hard. Set-up felt a little off. This is okay. Not everyday can be that day, and more often than not, the deadlift seems the most unpredictable. Nonetheless, got a solid 8 reps in and felt a bit tired. I also met a few other fellow powerlifters at my new gym. we talked a bit, which was nice, but usually I spend my time before my set totally in the zone. No matter, still got a solid set. I do not to P.R. everyday on every lift. It's hard to push both squats and deadlifts to the limit every time, and since my squat has been going strong, not too concerned if I have a less than stellar deadlift day. I lost count of the rounds in the assistance lifts. This is fine. I felt thoroughly worked and regardless got more volume in, save for the curls, in which I did 12 reps per set, instead of 10. It's nice to meet some other people at the gym.
 
Day 4

A1)Press
Bar x 8, 65 x 8, 85 x 5, 100 x 5, 115 x 5, 130 x 5
10 x 5 @ 100 lbs

A2) Chins
10, 10 x 5, 8 (68)

B) D-bell Bench (feet on bench)
50 x 10, 10, 8
45 x 10, 8, 8

Ran into a guy who was wearing a StrongFirst t-shirt at my work today. Very nice fellow. Talked about the forum, certificates, Pavel. He apparently owns a couple of gyms in the area teaching boot camp, and has achieved a few of the kettlebell certificates and SFL. He gave me his card and said I'd check him out sometime. Neat synchronicity of the day. Presses felt strong. I really enjoy this lift, especially when it gets heavy. Did all the warmup sets off the rack and cleaned the top set and all the working sets. I like cleaning before my presses...it makes my press technique tidy. (see what I did there?) Hit a few more chins today. Started with a set of 10 before first warmup of presses then did the usual fives. Hit my last RM set. I think this may be the most chins I've done in a workout/day even. Focused a little more on "feeling" my pecs" during d-bell press. Felt my chest hasn't really grown so pulled a few "bodybuilding" techniques to get my "mind muscle connection" i.e. slow negatives, pause at the bottom, constant tension by not locking out. I feel upper body size will help my bench move along. Good end to the first cycle. Next week, reset %'s and build up again!
 
Day 1 Week 4
TM Squat reset 265 to 275

Squat
Bar x 5, 135 x 5, 185 x 5, 210 x 5, 235 x 15 (P.R. Set)
185 x 20 (widowmaker set)

Assistance circuit
TRX Rows-15,15,15,15
Pushups-20,20,20
Single Leg RDL 2x26 lbs. - 15,15,15

Another fine day of squatting. 15 was the goal, but there were a few more reps there. Thought about doing twenty there and calling it quits for squats, but didn't. Took my time before the widowmaker set. Again, easy with the assistance. Called it quits after the 4th set of TRX rows. Solid squatting session! Threw in a couple bench practice sets. Nothing really heavy. Just a solid triple with 185. Thinking about bringing my grip in on bench a tad. Still having trouble with the stability concept on bench, but this may be something I have to abide, as my shoulder has never been the same since the injury. Did a couple of light prone raises, as I've been thinking this may help strengthen a weak part of my shoulder rotation. a couple of sets of 12 w/ 2.5 lbs plates. Might help balance out my trapezius, helping me to get my scapula in proper position during bench. My right shoulder has a tendency to shrug and protract, the opposite of what I'm looking for in bench. This may be from all the time in a sling during my injury and never strengthening these weak little muscles back up. Perhaps a little TLC may help remedy this.
 
Day 2 Week 4
Bench- Reset 215 to 220

Bar x 5, 135 x 5, 155 x 5, 175 x 5
190 x 5 x 5

T-Bar Rows
Bar x 20, Bar +45 x 15,15,15,15,15 (75)
Incline Bench - 40 lbs x 4 x 12 reps (48)

Bench felt really good today. Working sets were no problem. Narrowed my grip a bit, went from index to ring finger on power ringers. Felt a bit stronger. It's funny how your body adjusts to such a specific thing, that after a while it requires just a slight adjustment and feels fine again. I feel this mostly on bench and deads. Sometimes I feel conventional is better than sumo on any given day. It's good to switch things up ever so slightly sometimes. Was going to hit 190 x 5 once and do back off 5 x 5 with Second set, 175, but 190 felt great and easy. I do take me time between sets. 3 - 5 minutes, like recommended in Pavel's 3 - 5 routine. Did a 3 second pause on the last rep of the last set. Bar was flying. Did a bit more on the rows today. Lightened the load so I could actually get the movement right, and mimicked the bench press grip. Held the squeeze at the top. Same thing with incline dumbbell. Lowered the weight, paused at the bottom and drove it up. Day off tomorrow, from work and training then deadlifts on Thursday, my favorite day.
 
Day 3 Week 4
TM-From 355 to 365

Mobility + Broad Jump

Deadlift (Sumo)
135 x 5, 185 x 5, 235 x 5, 275 x 5, 310 x 15 (P.R. Set)
240 x 5 x 5 (B.O. Sets)

Assistance Circuit

25 lbs. D-Bell Curls -12,12,12,10
Dips - 15,15,15,15
25 lbs. B.S.S. -10,10,10,10

Did some broad jumps (one) between a few of my warm up sets. Being mainly in to lifting now, I've felt I've neglected aspects of my athletic roots. I still want to be able to jump, sprint, throw, move well and be explosive. I feel explosiveness/power can definitely help with the start of lifts. It just must be done without sacrificing tension. Was pleased to see my broad jump has good distance to it still. I remember in high school being a jumper/sprinter, I pulled a pretty solid 385 (with god awful form most likely) on the dead with very little training. I think I'll do some light explosive BW moves for each day. Like so

Vertical Jump-Squat
Plyo Pushup-bench
Broad Jump-Deadlift
Overhead Med Ball Slam-OH Press (not bodyweight but same principle)

Deadlift main set was certainly taxing. But I had the goal of 15 reps beforehand. Definitely moved a little slowly at the end, but was proud to hit the number. Back off sets give a chance to engrain more first reps. The weight is very light, almost feels like nothing after the P.R. set. Nothing special about assistance, except I decided to actually use weight on the split squats. These were pretty hard after the deads, but the dips and curls are fine for a nice pump. Still haven't put the belt on for deads. Don't know if I ever will or if it would even help me much. I did one time while I was sick and that's it. I didn't really feel like it was that helpful. Maybe I'm doing it wrong? It definitely, without a doubt, helps my squat. So far, cycle is cruising. Hope to keep this momentum for the next two weeks, then it's deload and vacation time.
 
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I gotta ask - what's the end goal of training a set of 15 on DL?

I'm used to thinking of DL as a low volume movement. This sounds like a strength endurance beat down.
 
WhatWouldHulkDo said:
I gotta ask - what's the end goal of training a set of 15 on DL?

I'm used to thinking of DL as a low volume movement. This sounds like a strength endurance beat down.
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Tis a good question. One doesn't really see many programs with deadlifts prescribed over 5 reps really. And any smart and experienced trainee who sees a program with Deadlifts over 10 reps would probably regard it with skepticism. I sure did. Then I started doing them, and my deadlift really took off. If you haven't checked out 5/3/1, I'd certainly recommend it. I know @Geoff Chafe was another forum member using it. It is basically linear periodization in short 3 weeks cycles, starting light and building up on week 3, then resetting after a 4th week deload, with a slightly higher training max.

The distinguishing feature is the last set, where you go "all out" and go for a rep P.R. with a given percentage. The training max is set @ 85 %, for this particular template, and the final rep P.R.s are based off 85,90 and 95 % of this each week, so the first cycle is only about 72 % - 80% of a true max. The last few reps of each all out set are really similar to a heavy set of 3 or 5, thus with a much lighter load.

Now, high rep deadlifts. What gives? Well, in my case, I think they built a wider platform of base strength to build off of. They also may be better for hypertrophy. Also, 5's or less work great. Many great lifters do them and thrive, forever. Me, I like new challenges. While it is not illogical to say the deadlift should not be trifled with as far as form breakdown occurs, in this template you choose when to push and when not to. You do not ever have to do more then the minimum reps, if you so choose. I chose to push today. Really, you get the benefit of getting into "max weight territory", without actually having to lift a max weight. The key, is to not let your form go to Antarctica. If you're pushing beyond that, you can expect harsh recovery. Heck, my back seems much more tired after 20 rep squats, but those seemed to be praised high rep deadlifts seem to be vilified. What gives?

It must be noted, that I do not perform these year round either. One's training plans and stages must be considered when programming. Should one be doing high rep deadlifts near meet time or weeks before planning their max? Probably...absolutely not. But if you're in a foundation period of training with no meet planned, why not? Is one stronger if a R.M. goes from 5 to 8? I'd think so. I probably won't max until the program dictates so, which truly may be quite some time.

Also, starting "too light" gives you more room to get accustomed to the work load. I really don't suffer that much after the workout, contrary to what one may expect, I feel a light/high rep all out set less destructive, then an all out set of 5 or 3. As the weight goes up through cycles, reps will naturally go down as you get closer to your max. Note there are also back off sets of 5.

Hopefully, you can dig up some semblance of a meaningful answer here.ROFL But for me, they seem to work very well. For some, this may not be the case. I guess you've got to go, to know.
 
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Day 4 Week4

Press
Bar x 5, 75 x 5, 90 x 5, 105 x 5, 115 x 5

10 x 5 @ 90

Chins
10, 8 x 5 (50)

D-Bell Press
50 lbs. x 12, 12 , 10, 7
40 lbs. x 10

Face Pulls
5 x 20

Nice easy reset for the press. I always want to do more on the top set, but the plan forbids it. Dropped the chin-up volume this week, as I did quite a bit last week, so went to the program minimum. Plus my back/lasts/glutes/hams were a bit fatigued from deadlift onslaught yesterday. Chest was also sore from dips. Added the face pulls to get a little more light pulling in. Hung around the gym for a bit. We have a powerlifting room where the lifters congregate, and chatted it up with a few fellow powerlifting enthusiasts. Very cool people. Stretched and relaxed and took my time. Time to eat now!!!
 
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Day 1 Week 5

Vertical Jumps

Squats
Bar x 5, 135 x 5, 175 x 5, 200 x 5, 225 x 5, 250 x 15 (P.R. Set)
200 x 20 (Widowmaker set)

Assistance
TRX Rows- 15,15,15
Pushups-20,20,20
Single Leg RDL - 15,15,15 w/ 25 lbs. per hand

Was feeling a bit tired before training after work. It was probably that large heap of turkey pot pie I ate during lunch. Very happy with squats, however. Last RM set with same weight was 12, so I mustered a nice little upgrade on that set. Was a bit distracted before the set. A class of some sort came in to do some core circuit stuff and they were right by my rack. They were a large group and it was a bit loud, so I used it as a test of my focus skills. It kind of pumped me up a bit and I had a nice focused set. Hard, but focused. Widowmaker is getting easier. I think I'm getting accustomed to the high reps, and I don't feel nearly as drained after this. Took my time with assistance. My fellow powerlifters were back and we talked about lifting, watched each others' form and so on. Was pleased to here one of them knew a good fellow from one of my old gyms and he's coming into train with us on Thursday. I look forward to seeing him as it's been a few years. Looking forward to bench tomorrow.
 
Day 2 Week 5
Bench Press
Bar x 10, 95 x 10, 135 x 8, 165 x 5, 185 x 5
200 x 5 x 5

B1) T- Bar Row (45 lbs) 5 x 20 (100)
B2) Incline Bench (40 lbs) 5 x 10 (50)

Spent a lot of time at the gym today. One of my lifting buddies is new to 5/3/1 so I was helping him out with some logistics. I think my bench is finally "catching on". All sets felt solid save for one, where I set up to close to the rack. I ended up pushing more straight up than in the usual J-ish pattern, but it wasn't too bad. Some touch points were inconsistent, but nonetheless they all felt solid and not too hard. I've been going a bit hard on my chest the past few weeks and decided the assistance has done it's job and since it's a pretty heavy volume week next week, I'd take it a bit easier on the upper pressing accessory work. Went a little lighter on incline dumbbell and upped the volume on Rows. This will probably be a protocol I'll continue as I progress into heavier weeks. I've gained quite a bit of weight, which was actually why I did a program for "hardgainers". I've gone from 173 to 181 (I take my weight on all Monday mornings) in less than 6 weeks. Needless to say, I've been shoveling down the calories. 20 rep squats=magic?
 
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Do you do any sort of sport in addition to your lifting?

I've wondered in the past if high rep barball squats might carryover into power endurance situations. I would imagine it would be a great thing for basketball or tennis - things were you have to do a lot of changing direction or sudden stops.
 
WhatWouldHulkDo said:
Do you do any sort of sport in addition to your lifting?

I've wondered in the past if high rep barball squats might carryover into power endurance situations. I would imagine it would be a great thing for basketball or tennis - things were you have to do a lot of changing direction or sudden stops.
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Currently I do not. I'm sure they would have SOME carryover, though there may be better options, depending on the circumstances. They do seem to induce weight gain and are quite fatiguing. The legs are usually sore for days after, which may impair practice or other strength practice. Sports often require so many different strength qualities i.e. endurance, power, strength, movement capabilities and I feel the 20 rep squats may be better suited for lifters who are purely training in the gym, or athlete who do need mass like bodybuilders or football players.

However, other moves like the renegade lunge or other variations for the sudden stops/change of direction and high rep goblet or double K.B. front squats may fit the bill better, as they aren't so intrusive on overall recovery and may give the same endurance/strength/power objective. Also, in my athletic years, we never killed ourselves in the weight room. It was always supplemental to sports training. I did find my speed and explosiveness as a sprinter/jumper were greatly enhanced relative to my deadlift and power clean going up.

Also, doing the regular sprint drills, or sports movement drills like "suicides" or side to sides will also be effective for said abilities, while strengthening yourself in the weight room will certainly fortify them. But it'd be best with a less gruesome way then 20 rep barbell squats.

It also depends where you are in the season. Offseason would be the time to put these things to the test, but I think most athletes would do themselves fine by always keeping something in the tank in the weight room, doing more "tonic" training than exhaustive.
 
Day 3 Week 5

Deadlifts (Conventional)
135 x 5, 205 x 5, 255 x 5, 295 x 5, 330 x 10 (P.R. Set)
Sumo
255 x 5 x 5

Curls-12,12,12,12,12 25lbs. (60)
Dips-10,1o,10,10,10 (50)
B.S.S. 20,20,20,20,20 (100)

Decided to pull conventional today because that's how I approached the bar during my warmup and was like "Oh, I'm pulling conventional today I guess". This is probably because my lower body is still sore from Squat day. Top set felt solid. Funny, back off sets felt heavy today because I didn't warmup in Sumo. Took my time. Once again, less volume on dips and more on other two movements.

Saw an old buddy today at the gym and caught up. Also met some new folks among the powerlifting community and talked shop. Stayed at the gym for wayyyyy too long and was starving upon departure. However, suffered a minor misshap and my right rear tire blew out not far from the gym. Post workout meal wasn't to be, and I waited for hours for a tow :(. Finally they arrived....Round about midnight. Bought a super burrito after my spare was installed and swallowed it whole. Was happy to finally try out this Mexican restaurant which is open 24 hours. Bulk shake when I got home, because I was still desiring calories. Tired now. Must sleep.
 
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Day 4 Week 5


A1) Chins
(1,2,3,4,5 Ladder) (15)
15 x 5 reps (75)
(90 total)

A2)Press
Bar x 10, 65 x 8, 85 x 5, 105 x 5, 115 x 5, 125 x 5
10 x 5 @ 105

B1) Face Pulls
30 lbs x 5 x 20 reps (100)

B2) Flat D-Bell Press
50 lbs x 5 x 10 reps

Was definitely tired upon waking today from getting home so late. Luckily, work wasn't very tiring.
My lats were fatigued from conventional deadlifts,. This doesn't happen so much with sumo.Nonetheless, approached the century mark for total chins this session. Warmed up with a ladder to 15 total reps. My elbow was bothering me a bit with the supine grip so I switched to parallel grip somewhere in there. Presses were heavy, because of fatigue and I misloaded the bar at 125 when I thought it was 105. Only did 1 rep then corrected it. Hit some more upper back work and light on d-bell presses. Triceps on right side felt a bit tight/crampy. it was fine though. Used a pure neutral grip with no rotation on dumbbell presses. These are easier on my shoulders. One more heavy week then a deload. Looking forward to that. After my vacation, I may choose to do standard deload after every 3 week cycle, but we'll decide on that then. Time to eat!
 
Day 1 Week 6

Squat
Bar x *, 135 x 5, 175 x 5, 205 x 5, 235 x5, 260 x 12 (P.R. Set)
Widowmaker set - 205 x 20

2 Rounds
TRX Rows-15,15
Pushups- 20,20
1 Leg RDL- 15,15

Was pretty darn tired today! Things felt heavier than normal, and I was a bit distracted, talking at the gym. That's okay. I improved my REP Pr in squat from 225 x 12 (first day) to 260 x 12. Now, I'm looking forward to a deload and vacation. Didn't feel much motivation to hit the assistance hard. I'll switch those exercises the next phase.
 
Day 2 Week 6

Bench Press
Bar x 10, 95 x 10, 135 x 8, 165 x 5, 190 x 5
210 x 5 x 5

T-Bar Rows
Bar x 20, 45 x 20, 15,12

Inc D-Bell Press
50 x 12, 10, 8

Starting to taper the assistance work. Fatigue has set in. I was pretty tired today and didn't eat enough but that's okay. Being the last week, it's fine that the assistance work is starting to drop. Bench sets were fine, but hard. Got all the reps, but had to rest a lot between sets. No biggie. The main sets are the important part, and they've been successful in this phase, which was really 2 phases combined into one. I think in the next two cycles, taking the deload on the 4th week will be ideal. After two more cycles, I think I'll try out the Boring but Big template.
 
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