500 lb Deadlift for Men - Sinister?

Is a 500 lb barbell deadlift a good equivalent of the 48 kg "Sinister?"

  • Yes,5 big wheels, 495/500 lb or 225 kg, is a Sinister barbell DL.

    Votes: 37 69.8%
  • No, 5 wheels is too heavy.

    Votes: 3 5.7%
  • No, 5 wheels is too light.

    Votes: 13 24.5%

  • Total voters
    53
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MikeTheBear

Level 6 Valued Member
Simple = 315

Solid (In-Between Simple & Sinister, ala @Pavel Macek ) = 405

Sinister = 495 (close enough to call it 500 if you wish)


I like going by the big plates.
.

A good breakdown here. I would hike up the simple standard to around 350 but I realize that would violate the "rule of big plates" as Dan John calls it. I only say this because I'm a guy with a @#$%ed up back and I even have some nerve damage in my right leg that's caused some weakness, but I can still pull 315. I'd hate to think that at my current strength levels (i.e., in toilet) I could meet the simple standard. Or perhaps I'm just being too hard on myself.
 

Rif

Level 6 Valued Member
Master Certified Instructor
.

A good breakdown here. I would hike up the simple standard to around 350 but I realize that would violate the "rule of big plates" as Dan John calls it. I only say this because I'm a guy with a @#$%ed up back and I even have some nerve damage in my right leg that's caused some weakness, but I can still pull 315. I'd hate to think that at my current strength levels (i.e., in toilet) I could meet the simple standard. Or perhaps I'm just being too hard on myself.
Personally, after my disc herniation I chose not to mess around with anything resembling heavy deadlifts. The risk/reward benefit is just not there imo. Especially since heavy swings keep my back healthy and strong enough.
 

Benedictine Monk

Level 3 Valued Member
My only concern with the proposed target being independent of bodyweight is I seem to remember Pavel P writing somewhere that anything over 2.0 times bodyweight for a deadlift was exceeding what was needed for GPP and starting to encroach on someone's structural integrity to maximize a performance goal.

With that caveat, I'm going to click yes, thats a good sinister deadlift goal.
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

Pavel P writing somewhere that anything over 2.0 times bodyweight for a deadlift was exceeding what was needed for GPP
As such, twice bdw in deadlift "equals" to Simple.

My 2 cents: Barbell Simple & Sinister, based on PTTP! 2.0 recommended lifts, for men:

Deadlift:

2xBW = Simple
2,5xBW = Solid
3xBW = Sinister
Knowing that, and reading @Pavel Macek's log, we can notice that S&S can be at the same time :
=> sustainable
=> a very good GPP program
=> a good tool to get high performance due to carryover

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

wespom9

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
Way late but I added my numbers to the spreadsheet. Holy smokes some of you are pull up MACHINES. Definitely where I know I lack the most.

Two cents on the poll: I like the simple/solid/sinister goals. Then again, I really like the 2x, 2.5x, 3x BW idea as well. I do feel it might be too easy for someone 200+ to hit the number target... At 150lbs , I found that a 315 DL and getting to S&S Simple standards was not easy, but then again it shouldn't be. Quite realistic to be able to achieve those goals with consistent training and effective programming. It always sucks for us small guys when it is hard numbers and not relative, but such is life. Gotta work hard.
 

banzaiengr

Level 6 Valued Member
Just my two cents. If we are using the Simple and Sinister standard from S&S, I believe there is a catch. Both of those standards have a time element involved, which in my opinion makes them a whole different animal.

If we were to add that to say the deadlift, say 315 x 5 in 5 min. that's much different than just a one time lift at 315.

On the other hand, if you want just a strength "simple" standard then probably 315 may be a pretty good number but I think 350 would be better.

For sinister I'm not that sure because I don't know anyone who has done sinister where I can compare other lifts. Personally I believe sinister is quite amazing so I would be inclined to think 500 would have to be at least the number, probably higher.
 

Glen

Level 6 Valued Member
Just my two cents. If we are using the Simple and Sinister standard from S&S, I believe there is a catch. Both of those standards have a time element involved, which in my opinion makes them a whole different animal.

If we were to add that to say the deadlift, say 315 x 5 in 5 min. that's much different than just a one time lift at 315.

On the other hand, if you want just a strength "simple" standard then probably 315 may be a pretty good number but I think 350 would be better.

For sinister I'm not that sure because I don't know anyone who has done sinister where I can compare other lifts. Personally I believe sinister is quite amazing so I would be inclined to think 500 would have to be at least the number, probably higher.
That sounds like a fun challenge barbell to 500 in five minutes :)
 

MikeTheBear

Level 6 Valued Member
If we were to add that to say the deadlift, say 315 x 5 in 5 min. that's much different than just a one time lift at 315.
That is more interesting, and also more -WARNING those with delicate sensibilities should stop reading now because I am about to drop the "F" word - "functional." In most real life tasks, you're more likely to have to pick up heavy stuff more than once, so a deadlift for 5 test makes more sense from a real life perspective.
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
I like the 5 reps idea.

It would be more video-friendly if it were 5 reps in 1 minute... just sayin'. ;)

So if it's 5 reps, I'll just throw this out there for women:
Simple 200 lb
Solid 300 lb
Sinister 400 lb
Those who coach women in the deadlift may have a more accurate idea what are realistic numbers. I'm at 250 lb as a 1RM myself, and could probably do 225 for 5 singles in a minute.
 

MikeTheBear

Level 6 Valued Member
@Anna C I also considered a shorter time limit. On the minute sets get very tough, and personally if my goal is to do 5 reps I want to get them over with ASAP so I would train accordingly. Of course with reps, there is also that question of whether to allow touch and go or require a reset to make it a true dead start.

This is starting to get complicated. :cool:
 

banzaiengr

Level 6 Valued Member
I used a program that had you taking just 30 sec. between singles. Maybe that would be better. ? I liked it though. The "F" word, that was funny.
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

@MikeTheBear is right when he talks about real life comparison. We are more likely to lift heavy only once, then plenty of rest before a potential 2nd lift.

However, as a grind, if we want to rationally compare to S&S, we have 2 options:
=> still using the 5 reps frame (even if it can be not "real life oriented")
=> use a kind of coefficient to make the standard higher and get only one rep. For instance, instead of 315, let say 350

Very good suggestion from @banzaiengr for the time component !

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

Building on the real life comparison then there is no justification for bodyweight multiples. Heavy stuff is heavy stuff
I not totally agree with that statement.

I agree to the fact like heavy stuff is heavy stuff. However, in "real life", a light guy cannot lift as much as a big guy but can run more, S&S or not.

Another comparison; I think it is "almost impossible" for a 60kg guy to press the beast. However the beast is not even 1/2 bdw for a 120kg guy.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

Shahaf Levin

Level 5 Valued Member
I don't understand the comparison some do to S&S swings Simple standard.

To my understanding swing in S&S format is a movement/exercise for power, power endurance and conditioning and TGU is the strength movement. Therefore, IMHO, if any comparison between S&S standards and deadlift standards is made (and I don't say it is necessary), it should be based on the TGU standard (eg. 315lbs x 5 in 10 minutes or something similar).
 

banzaiengr

Level 6 Valued Member
@Shahaf Levin and @Steve Freides I completely understand what you are saying. Shahaf, I see where you're coming from with the swing, but isn't that more of the nature of the exercise? It's a power movement. I was just using 5 min. as a suggestion with the deadlift. I was not trying to compare it with the deadlift. Therefore, your suggestion with 10 min. is logical.

My point was that if we are comparing the S&S standards to what Steve is looking at for the dead, I think we should remember that the S&S standards do have the time element to them which throws a whole different sand into the gears. At least in my opinion.

But if you want just a raw deadlift standard that would be comparable to the difficulty of reaching sinister, then I think at least 500 would have to be the goal. JMO Thanks
 

Shahaf Levin

Level 5 Valued Member
I think we should remember that the S&S standards do have the time element to them which throws a whole different sand into the gears
So maybe: Sinister - 500lbs x 2 in 24 hours. That's not a bad joke, that's demonstrating that you own the lift and not a PR which calls for a week off... But anyway, if someone has a recent MAX of 500lbs I consider him seriously strong regardless of time limit...
 
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