Kettlebell A+A+Glycolysis

[Brak]

As many of you who have been helping me navigate some of the details of my Anti-Glycolytic / A+A style workouts know - in 2022 I read a lot about and bought into the premise of AGT and A+A style training. Due to an injury that needed to heal, and partly due to what I'd read, I stopped going to Muay Thai where I would be in glycolysis most of the time: Avg heart rate of ~50, high heart rate of 185ish, and about half (or more sometimes) of the hour in zone 5 (155-Max) - at 52 yrs old.

Since I've stopped the martial arts (4-5 months ago), my strength is pretty good, but my V02max has dropped a couple points, and body composition is not great (feel like I'm getting fat, and trying to convince myself it is muscle) which I suppose all makes sense since I didn't replace the martial arts duration with longer duration LSS. I'm just doing about the same weekly duration but light bag work, walking, etc. so overall less work volume, lower weekly avg heart rate, much less glycolysis, etc.

Bottom line - I miss martial arts. I'm considering something less intense - I've done a lot of Filipino MA in the past, and some Wing Chun, both pretty low-intensity compared to Muay Thai, I was also considering getting back into some BJJ, but that can get quite intense when rolling and brings back up the glycolysis question.

One of the things I read that stuck was accepting that going from glycolytic training to AGT (paraphrasing to the best of my memory) means a slight sacrifice in body composition for overall health because chronic glycolysis = bad.
Maffetone purists would say NEVER go above a specific (pretty low) heart rate, but I know that kind of thinking didn't pan out for A+A KB training and isn't really embraced around here. As such I haven't been too worried about it when I fail the talk test at the end of a workout - a couple of minutes of glycolysis, probably ok?
What about 30-40 minutes of glycolysis, once a week? If I train A+A with KB (and PUs and Dips) twice a week and do some martial art once a week that is glycolytic, is one undoing the other? Are they complementary? Are weekly infusions of glycolytic byproducts simply bad for health and since I'm not training for a competition or anything, just not smart?
I know I need to make up my own mind regarding the trade-off between the enjoyment I get out of martial arts vs the potential negative impact of glycolytic training, but I'm looking for feedback on just how negative people believe that impact of once a week glycolytic training is on overall health.

 

[North Coast Miller]

As many of you who have been helping me navigate some of the details of my Anti-Glycolytic / A+A style workouts know - in 2022 I read a lot about and bought into the premise of AGT and A+A style training. Due to an injury that needed to heal, and partly due to what I'd read, I stopped going to Muay Thai where I would be in glycolysis most of the time: Avg heart rate of ~50, high heart rate of 185ish, and about half (or more sometimes) of the hour in zone 5 (155-Max) - at 52 yrs old.

Since I've stopped the martial arts (4-5 months ago), my strength is pretty good, but my V02max has dropped a couple points, and body composition is not great (feel like I'm getting fat, and trying to convince myself it is muscle) which I suppose all makes sense since I didn't replace the martial arts duration with longer duration LSS. I'm just doing about the same weekly duration but light bag work, walking, etc. so overall less work volume, lower weekly avg heart rate, much less glycolysis, etc.

Bottom line - I miss martial arts. I'm considering something less intense - I've done a lot of Filipino MA in the past, and some Wing Chun, both pretty low-intensity compared to Muay Thai, I was also considering getting back into some BJJ, but that can get quite intense when rolling and brings back up the glycolysis question.

One of the things I read that stuck was accepting that going from glycolytic training to AGT (paraphrasing to the best of my memory) means a slight sacrifice in body composition for overall health because chronic glycolysis = bad.
Maffetone purists would say NEVER go above a specific (pretty low) heart rate, but I know that kind of thinking didn't pan out for A+A KB training and isn't really embraced around here. As such I haven't been too worried about it when I fail the talk test at the end of a workout - a couple of minutes of glycolysis, probably ok?
What about 30-40 minutes of glycolysis, once a week? If I train A+A with KB (and PUs and Dips) twice a week and do some martial art once a week that is glycolytic, is one undoing the other? Are they complementary? Are weekly infusions of glycolytic byproducts simply bad for health and since I'm not training for a competition or anything, just not smart?
I know I need to make up my own mind regarding the trade-off between the enjoyment I get out of martial arts vs the potential negative impact of glycolytic training, but I'm looking for feedback on just how negative people believe that impact of once a week glycolytic training is on overall health.

I strongly feel you need to rethink how you look at “glycolysis” and at what point negative health effects are supposed to kick in. This being from a metabolic health standpoint and not for specific training adaptive response.

You are carrying avoidance of glycolysis way too far to the point where, in your own words, it is now negatively effecting your conditioning and body comp.

 

[Adachi]

I have been re-reading the Strong Endurance manual a few times and experimenting with protocols for about a year now.
I will say that glycolysis isn't bad- except that it's far easier to overdo, than not.

What about 30-40 minutes of glycolysis, once a week?

I don't want to lock you into anything - but as an example: S&S cites - after Simple, you'll wanna race the clock and dig into acidosis once a week on your timed sessions.

If I train A+A with KB (and PUs and Dips) twice a week and do some martial art once a week that is glycolytic, is one undoing the other?

No, not necessarily. Let us remind ourselves that the Dose Makes the Poison.
periodically dipping into Glycolytic training allows the body to have some of the precursors to muscle protein synthesis in place.

Are they complementary?

Yes, in the long run, all three systems help one another deliver a net performance profile.
the problem isn't eliminating acid towards zero in any and all events.
the problem is allowing the body to clear an acid load, without overwhelming the system.
Use it purposefully and (in most cases) sparingly. Not as the main mode of operation; unless you're peaking. and most peaking period design I've seen is a 4-6 week period leading up to the competition. but the whole range I've seen is up to 12 weeks. but those are very specialized concerns that need to be designed around the target date or date range.

Are weekly infusions of glycolytic byproducts simply bad for health and since I'm not training for a competition or anything, just not smart?

No, they are not simply "not smart". they are in some cases necessary for building and repairing muscle. And, I would wave that frequency to test what periodicity works best for you, and your recovery. Try as frequently as 1/week - and infrequently as 1/month in training; unless you're peaking for a competition.

If you're peaking you'll want to ramp that up so that you can prepare yourself to harvest your best performance. You'll have to draw from your training-built substrates. Harvesting a crop means that you're going to get the benefit of the crop, but you'll just have to keep in mind the long-term recovery will play into a seasonal nature. And the seasonal nature means you'll have to pay that price and maybe go into a winter of off-season training. You'll probably be well served to train at lower levels to prepare for the next season of ramping up your base training.

My understanding is that it's largely true that most Lifting athletes make that harvest about 2 times per year. some fighters fight once or twice a year. some fighters have to be in a season of high readiness; which means not overdoing it, but pushing your limits to peak out at the end of whatever competition period you have.

 

[Bauer]

Pavel has stated in the newsletter that glycolytic sessions have their benefits, even for health.

For health, he recommends one session per month. For "always being ready" one session every two weeks. For peaking or an extra push, about once per week (as in S&S). In S&S he also recommends non-specific "jolts", that test your spirit without breaking the body. And he recommends waving the intensity.

This can be as simple as a two minute snatch-test, or glycolytic power repeats (for example sets of 20 every 5 minutes), an S&S test day, etc.

Tim Almond has recommended to start one heavy snatching session per week with a 2 minute snatch test, resting for 5-10 minutes and then finishing the remaining reps A+A style -- as a form of peaking before the TSC.

 

[John K]

What about 30-40 minutes of glycolysis, once a week? If I train A+A with KB (and PUs and Dips) twice a week and do some martial art once a week that is glycolytic, is one undoing the other? Are they complementary? Are weekly infusions of glycolytic byproducts simply bad for health and since I'm not training for a competition or anything, just not smart?

Do it, you'll be fine, and likely better. You could even train muay thai twice a week and still be totally OK.

 

[Anna C]

Great inputs above.

I would also surmise, though I'm not a martial artist of any kind, that your heart rate during Muay Thai isn't purely a reflection of your metabolic state, as it would be with steady-state cardio. There's probably a lot of adrenaline-driven HR increase, which certainly interacts with metabolism, but isn't purely indicative of it. So you may be less glycolytic than you think. Also, you are probably producing some lactate, recovering, repeating with a varying effort.... as I find myself doing on road bike rides. I do it often, and I don't worry about it. In fact, I think there's a lot of benefit from this production of lactate and letting the body get good at shuttling it around to other muscles to use for fuel and recover in the working muscles to repeat the effort... much like A+A and similar stuff going on, but likely less pure (i.e., with more glycolysis accompanying it than A+A would have).

I don't think you're "undoing" benefits in any way, but two things can be true that might contribute to that line of thinking: 1) if sessions are stressful in any way, they are costly in terms of recovery, which means at some point it means less of other types of training that you can productively do and recover from (and therefore benefit from, adaptation-wise), and 2) for someone that has a poor aerobic base, they might rely excessively on glycolysis to produce energy during any type of activity, because their aerobic engine just doesn't put much out. For those people, the MAF method or some other disciplined training where you hold yourself below a threshold of effort can really help to re-develop that aerobic system. If you blow past it all the time, it'll never happen. But it sounds like you are getting a good variety currently.

 

[TimothyGander]

and body composition is not great (feel like I'm getting fat, and trying to convince myself it is muscle)

I would look to your diet rather than your training for the explanation for that.

 

[Brak]

Thanks for all the responses, clearly experiencing an overcorrection here. As @Adachi reminds...the poison is in the dose.

in some cases necessary for building and repairing muscle. And, I would wave that frequency to test what periodicity works best for you, and your recovery. Try as frequently as 1/week - and infrequently as 1/month in training;

Great feedback about it potentially being a needed process. I used to wave it anyway depending on other factors like how I was feeling that day/overall recovery and current injury inventory.

I would also surmise, though I'm not a martial artist of any kind, that your heart rate during Muay Thai isn't purely a reflection of your metabolic state, as it would be with steady-state cardio. There's probably a lot of adrenaline-driven HR increase, which certainly interacts with metabolism, but isn't purely indicative of it. So you may be less glycolytic than you think

Great point, it is very much a HIIT session with some flushing rather than a steady state of high HR (never been able to keep that up anyway). So once again paying attention only a couple HR datapoints (average and max) doesn't tell the whole story. And your points about potential for overtraining and ensuring a solid aerobic base are well taken.

would look to your diet rather than your training

Yeah, heard. Been dialing back the post-meal dark chocolate during the week. Maybe need to take a harder look at my vodka and Cheetoh-dust-fueled weekend "re-feeds".

 

[George Vrotsos]

The way I look at it is if i ever NEED my training IRL because of OH SH!T, then that IRL event is likely to involve some glycolytic work. I don't drink from the glycolytic fountain often, but a sip or two a week doesn't hurt.

 

[Brak]

The way I look at it is if i ever NEED my training IRL because of OH SH!T, then that IRL event is likely to involve some glycolytic work. I don't drink from the glycolytic fountain often, but a sip or two a week doesn't hurt.

So always training for an event that you hope never happens. But you aren't gonna be doing a never-ending peaking cycle just in case either, the sipping makes perfect sense.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Keep in mind that exposure creates the cure. If you deliberately challenge yourself very infrequently you have a reduced antioxidant capacity. The more often you train this way the more robust your response. The upper end of this capacity is almost beyond belief. A moderate but consistent approach is healthier than infrequent spikes dep on your POV.

Another thing to consider with more HIIT based intervals is that a lot of the lactate produced isn’t being metabolized into ROS since the muscle is mostly using ATP for type II fibers. Much of the resulting lactate does get consumed around the body but a lot gets converted back to glycogen via the Cori Cycle. This type of training being more for aerobic than strength.

 

[Steve Freides]

@Brak, I will add my voice to the chorus. IMO, go back to doing your martial art. The way the old-timers got into conditioning shape was to just keep producing lactate and letting your body learn how to get rid of it. This can still work, but the issue is that the cost to you is higher with that middle energy zone than it is with alactic + aerobic. In your shoes, what I'd be thinking is that your A+A training can help you not need to go into the most costly energy system because your other two energy systems will be, thanks to your training, better.

-S-

 

[Brak]

Keep in mind that exposure creates the cure...A moderate but consistent approach is healthier than infrequent spikes dep on your POV.

I appreciate that perspective given how far I was taking the "Anti" in AGT. I caught myself wondering, "am I never going to get my heart rate above 145 again?" That doesn't sound reasonable and when I do need to perform well on a tough hike or maybe surfing, or a pickup game of beach volleyball on vacation, etc. I don't want the feeling to surprise me - or worse. So moderate doses...agreed.

 

[Brak]

Go back to doing your martial art...your A+A training can help you not need to go into the most costly energy system because your other two energy systems will be, thanks to your training, better.

@Steve Freides - Thanks, solid advice, along the lines of the consistent message from this very helpful community. What I'm hearing is: not only is it OK to add back in some more intense work but that it is likely to be beneficial. Excited to get back to a MA gym now that I'm healed up and my A+A work is providing a strong foundation.

 

[Adachi]

From Q&D: "stick with the VO2 max training methods proven at the highest echelons of your sport"

A+A from this perspective is - the same as Q&D - not all things to all sports.

the way I see it - A+A is a way to organize your base training to expand the ATP/CP and Aerobic systems to delay and lessen the need for the Glycolytic system. And, when the time comes - the results of such training will augment the effectiveness of the glycolytic system when called upon.

Edit: Even still - A+A training as prescribed here is commonly understood to be GPP. and every sport has its own requisite SPP.

 

[minda]

Hi kettlebell army
Please commment, critique and give advice on how to improve my routine bellow.
My goal is to increse endurance and stamina it total, to have something in the tank while other are grasping for breath.

I do kettlebell swings 7 reps (both hands) every 30 seconds cca. 12 sec work 18 sec rest. with kettel bell 20 kg
Currenty I am doing 60 sets (30min) with 5 min cooldown, 5 sessions per week.
My goal is reach max of x80 sets, than switch to havier bell.

I started with 40 sets (20kg), every rep is explosive, and I finnish the workout if I fail talking test. I have been monitorin my heart rate during the session and my HR max. is 170, HR average 130. Workout feel good, I do it allmost every day in the morning.
After cca. 15-20 days, 10-15 workouts I increse Volume for another x10 sets

My questions are:
Am I doing it too much 5 workouts per week? I know to do 4 in a row (too much?)
Is this the right workout for me? any twiks to improve it?
Is some other routine better to reach my goal?

Thank for all the feedback
Cheers!
Toni

 

[Eyetic]

Hi kettlebell army
Please commment, critique and give advice on how to improve my routine bellow.
My goal is to increse endurance and stamina it total, to have something in the tank while other are grasping for breath.

I do kettlebell swings 7 reps (both hands) every 30 seconds cca. 12 sec work 18 sec rest. with kettel bell 20 kg
Currenty I am doing 60 sets (30min) with 5 min cooldown, 5 sessions per week.
My goal is reach max of x80 sets, than switch to havier bell.

I started with 40 sets (20kg), every rep is explosive, and I finnish the workout if I fail talking test. I have been monitorin my heart rate during the session and my HR max. is 170, HR average 130. Workout feel good, I do it allmost every day in the morning.
After cca. 15-20 days, 10-15 workouts I increse Volume for another x10 sets

My questions are:
Am I doing it too much 5 workouts per week? I know to do 4 in a row (too much?)
Is this the right workout for me? any twiks to improve it?
Is some other routine better to reach my goal?

Thank for all the feedback
Cheers!
Toni

Maybe you should open a new post as your query is not directly related to the OP!! It would be easier to get a response also in that way!

 

[Mark Limbaga]

Given you are more seasoned, I would probably do Muay Thai twice a week then to measure recovery do s and s or a+a initially to see how you adapt...

You can also not turn up the power in your punches and kicks initially until you find your groove

 

[Brak]

From Q&D: "stick with the VO2 max training methods proven at the highest echelons of your sport"

@Adachi - I didn't want to put the full screenshot from Q&D here, but did have a question regarding what I saw in it: He also said "Just do yourself a favor and stay away from "Tabatas" and other pop-HIIT. Why? We will discuss that another time." Did that ever get discussed? If yes, could you direct me to that?

All the good advice about doing A+A for my core workouts instead of the more crossfitty stuff is solid and if I never get an answer to the above question, that should be fine. But somewhere in the details of that answer, something might explain how a weekly or twice-a-week martial arts session is not HIIT. Or is there just no getting away from the fact that it is a HIIT session and despite Pavel saying to stay away from them, if that is what I enjoy and that is my sport then as long as that isn't the entirety of my training, then that is probably ok too?

Given you are more seasoned, I would probably do Muay Thai twice a week then to measure recovery do s and s or a+a initially to see how you adapt...

You can also not turn up the power in your punches and kicks initially until you find your groove

@Mark Limbaga - "more seasoned"! LOL. Last night at my JKD class, I was unfortunately paired with a 15yr old white belt (I'm a purple belt), while I was very patiently helping her - as higher belts should - the coach noticed I was not getting as much out of class as I could and suggested that since I was more seasoned, I should go workout with the more seasoned group on the other side of the mat. My reaction made for a decent moment of fun that you just reminded me of - thx for bringing up my seasoning.

Having done this for quite a while, power generation is not an issue and your advice to not turn up the power initially is right in line with what I've been thinking. I love the loud/hard crack of a glove or shin on a pad when I have a competent feeder, but focusing on technique more and power less should help keep HR in check on average. good advice, thx.

 

[Adachi]

@Adachi - I didn't want to put the full screenshot from Q&D here, but did have a question regarding what I saw in it: He also said "Just do yourself a favor and stay away from "Tabatas" and other pop-HIIT. Why? We will discuss that another time." Did that ever get discussed? If yes, could you direct me to that?

these protocols are marketed to beginners very well, however - they are almost always not suitable in the long term as a training modality within the perspective of Q&D. Q&D seeks to help you make fitness gains while minimizing the biological costs.

as to whether it ever got discussed - I would say it's explained very well in the Strong Endurance Seminar.

All the good advice about doing A+A for my core workouts instead of the more crossfitty stuff is solid and if I never get an answer to the above question, that should be fine. But somewhere in the details of that answer, something might explain how a weekly or twice-a-week martial arts session is not HIIT. Or is there just no getting away from the fact that it is a HIIT session and despite Pavel saying to stay away from them, if that is what I enjoy and that is my sport then as long as that isn't the entirety of my training, then that is probably ok too?

The Dose Makes the Poison
if you look specifically at HIIT protocols, you'll often find a very high ratio of work to rest, almost always exceeding 2:1. often 5:1 or 10:1.

This is usually composed of small strength-endurance moves like pushups. while that unto itself actually may fit certain people's fitness levels or abilities, at least temporarily, for the General Population - it often causes a flood of acid, which is not easily cleared by the body.

Roles and Goals
If you're training for a demanding fighting sport, you'll need an incredible amount of cardio compared to someone like me, whose fitness goals are largely contained within being able to carry laundry up and down a flight of stairs or pick up a small child. Bonus, if I can do both at once.

for those who practice a sport, there's largely not too much of a way around relatively large amounts of cardio. the better your cardio is, the longer you can maintain speed, think clearly, perceive and interpret quickly; and better duck, defend, and counter; as a result. however, what you usually find is that the rest ratios are often intended to mimic and sufficiently train the necessary amount of work in the ring.

That's different from the more arbitrary nature of the silliest CrossFit box WODs I've seen drawn on a chalkboard outside a rolled-up garage door, which prescribes something like 100 burpees, 100 pushups, 100 situps, and AMPRAP Clean and jerk.

Anecdote: GPP≠SPP
Many sports have interests in traits that are related to endurance - but require certain timing capacities which are augmented beyond the scope of Q&D. Q&D, I would say would make a fine addition to any endurance athlete's base training. but it's only applicable to GPP concerns. your sport and your practice need to be centered around your performance in the ring. as long as that's true, put in the work. at some acceptable cost. and for the one boxer, I know (and I visited his Gym only once), there was a lot of sweat and a small amount of collapse involved. but, when the time came, he explained to me that he had gone from 3 rounds of sparring to 8 rounds in a few months. and, he felt like he was progressing well.

I don't know too much about it. I've only seen it from the outside, and I watched him progress. and, I'll say that the density of his work ebbed and flowed and alternated from technique work to stamina building. and that was the price he paid to be a better boxer. And the proof was his increased ability in the ring. a few years later (after having 2 kids) he can, and does spar regularly for 10 rounds. and he's now over 40.

Q&D would make a fine addition to a training regimen to help augment some GPP. But it would be a terrible stand-alone program for a Muay Thai fighter, especially one who competes. There are too many other traits that require attention and training, which would be outside the foci of this minimalist training program.

Stick with the VO2 Max training methods proven at the highest echelons of your sport.
I would guess (not knowing anything) that your gym and your trainer aren't exercising the same arbitrary nature that some Crossfit style programming seems like it's oriented towards. More is better, style training should always come with an appropriate caveat and limitation.

I would guess that your training at your fighting gym or dojo is to one degree or another centered around your area of discipline and practice. I did practice Kenpo for a few years as a young kid. and aikido, and for a very short while kendo. each of them required what I always resented as a lot of running or at least jogging. but, there's a point to it. and, it wasn't just to do more. it was to be better in the ring.

In this way, I don't estimate that your Muay Thai training is actually like HIIT and Tabata's - all the time. I would bet the densities and lengths of strength endurance doses are actually designed around getting you better in the ring.