Other/Mixed Breathe during squat

[Steve Freides]

@Anna C, Pavel has some great cues for this, e.g., imagine you’re breathing into your groin. Obviously your diaphragm can’t go down that far but it’s nonetheless a useful cue/visualization. (I use something similar with my French Horn students, who play seated: I tell them to imagine they’re breathing into the seat of the chair.)

-S-

 

[Anna C]

@Anna C, Pavel has some great cues for this, e.g., imagine you’re breathing into your groin. Obviously your diaphragm can’t go down that far but it’s nonetheless a useful cue/visualization. (I use something similar with my French Horn students, who play seated: I tell them to imagine they’re breathing into the seat of the chair.)

-S-

This is interesting because when you do that you're essentially pressurizing below the diaphragm as you're inhaling, as opposed to taking a breath and then creating pressure. I suppose both can work for lifting.

 

[Steve Freides]

This is interesting because when you do that you're essentially pressurizing below the diaphragm as you're inhaling, as opposed to taking a breath and then creating pressure. I suppose both can work for lifting.

I have never done it any other way. The act of inhaling while simultaneously resisting the expansion of the abdomen is very powerful. As the inhalation progresses, the core tension increases.

-S-

 

[Anna C]

I have never done it any other way. The act of inhaling while simultaneously resisting the expansion of the abdomen is very powerful. As the inhalation progresses, the core tension increases.

-S-

I could see that for lifting inhales (or musical instrument inhales), it could be done as a default. But surely you do inhale normally (and diaphragmatically) most of the time without doing that. I think a lot of trainees don't really know the difference or don't know how to contract the diaphragm while inhaling. So "take a big breath and brace" can be the simplest way to get someone to effectively create IAP with the valsalva maneuver for a lift where you want them to pressurize and hold the breath, like a heavy squat or deadlift. Two steps -- inhale air, then brace to contract the diaphragm and all the other trunk muscles together for a stable core.

 

[Steve Freides]

@Anna C, I don't find the method you've described nearly as effective - not that you shouldn't use it if it works for you and for your students, of course. If I could make a similar analogy, it would be something like cleaning a kettlebell, relaxing in the rack, then tensing before pressing. Perhaps not the perfect comparison - maybe relaxing the shoulders then packing and doing a pullup. Both of those things can and do work but I don't find them optimal.

For a musical instrument, the focus isn't on breathing in against the tension but breathing in fully and relaxedly. I teach beginning brass players to focus on getting their belly to expand as they inhale. Intra-abdominal pressure isn't an issue because all that's really of concern is taking in as much air as is needed. The pressure is managed on the other end by the vocal cords for singing or the embouchure (lips, mouth, tongue) for wind and brass playing, and part of the skill is balancing those two to achieve the desired musical effect. Control and strength eventually come to both ends of the chain, to releasing the air as needed, and to controlling the air at the other end.

-S-

 

[Anna C]

@Anna C, I don't find the method you've described nearly as effective - not that you shouldn't use it if it works for you and for your students, of course. If I could make a similar analogy, it would be something like cleaning a kettlebell, relaxing in the rack, then tensing before pressing. Perhaps not the perfect comparison - maybe relaxing the shoulders then packing and doing a pullup. Both of those things can and do work but I don't find them optimal.

For a musical instrument, the focus isn't on breathing in against the tension but breathing in fully and relaxedly. I teach beginning brass players to focus on getting their belly to expand as they inhale. Intra-abdominal pressure isn't an issue because all that's really of concern is taking in as much air as is needed. The pressure is managed on the other end by the vocal cords for singing or the embouchure (lips, mouth, tongue) for wind and brass playing, and part of the skill is balancing those two to achieve the desired musical effect. Control and strength eventually come to both ends of the chain, to releasing the air as needed, and to controlling the air at the other end.

-S-

Great explanations, Steve! Thanks.

All of this stuff is so interesting... especially after Second Wind. Funny how at first it seems like "How could there be a 2-day seminar on breathing"? And now we can think of how much more there is to cover, and how much deeper (pun intended) it can go.

 

[Steve Freides]

Yup, yup. Our breathing is the window to our souls. It's not completely under our conscious control but we can nonetheless change it.

-S-

 

[Meghan O'Connell]

Hi, and thank you for this discussion!

My personal experience is that I took a DNS course a year and a half ago, and that is when I really “got” this whole ‘diaphragm breath to stabilize’ bit.

I do it like Steve, where the inhale creates the pressure rather than trying to pressurize after the inhale. That, along with using a hook grip now rather than mixed grip as I did until about half a year ago, means that my back always feels very good after deadlifting now (I don’t use a belt).

I try to send the air as low as possible when lifting (as opposed to the relaxed style of diaphragm breathing, where there is less pressure created so higher volume, and the air is aimed a bit more like the lowest rib).

I’m just starting to work my way this week through Pavel’s Hardstyle Abs book, so today is day one of the two weeks of practising the breathing daily, so I guess I am coming at it from a slightly backwards way compared to most StrongFirst practitioners - but I am looking forward to integrating the two approaches, because I know I have a lot more strength in me somewhere that I haven’t managed to express properly yet. Looking forward to seeing what type of results I get. Thanks again.

 

[Anna C]

I try to send the air as low as possible when lifting (as opposed to the relaxed style of diaphragm breathing, where there is less pressure created so higher volume, and the air is aimed a bit more like the lowest rib).

I like this description. Thanks!

 

[Meghan O'Connell]

I like this description. Thanks!

Thank you @Anna C !

Breathing and brace thoughts are sort of my personal rabbit hole currently.

@Steve Freides also please, and maybe even @Owen Chau if you're on here (with a big thank you for recommending that I read Hardstyle Abs!), one of my thoughts since that last post is: if the HSA breathing/hiss pressurization gets our abs more turned on, but we need to retain more breath inside during, say, a powerlifting type of squat or deadlift, how does that work in with the abs/core?

Or, put another way, it seems like the HSA breathing is ideal for medium pressure lifts, so what about when it's a very heavy, 1RM type of lift?

Is it sort of like, the HSA stuff builds more muscle to have available for heavier lifts, even though we aren't necessarily using that musculature in the same way?

Thank you

 

[Steve Freides]

if the HSA breathing/hiss pressurization gets our abs more turned on, but we need to retain more breath inside during, say, a powerlifting type of squat or deadlift, how does that work in with the abs/core?

Anything that increases IAP (intra-abdominal pressure) is good. There is nothing that says more air means more pressure. To some extent this is true but hissing or grunting can up the pressure, and there's no downside because soon enough, it'll be time for another breath.

-S-

 

[Anna C]

Is it sort of like, the HSA stuff builds more muscle to have available for heavier lifts, even though we aren't necessarily using that musculature in the same way?

To add to what Steve said, yes I think of it as you said here. When doing something like a hardstyle sitback with pressure breathing, it's strengthening the abs. Then they're more available for heavy lifting like squats and deadlifts, and get stronger still when used for these.

 

[Meghan O'Connell]

Anything that increases IAP (intra-abdominal pressure) is good. There is nothing that says more air means more pressure. To some extent this is true but hissing or grunting can up the pressure, and there's no downside because soon enough, it'll be time for another breath.

-S-

Thanks! Makes sense.

 

[Meghan O'Connell]

To add to what Steve said, yes I think of it as you said here. When doing something like a hardstyle sitback with pressure breathing, it's strengthening the abs. Then they're more available for heavy lifting like squats and deadlifts, and get stronger still when used for these.

Thank you! (I'm not at the hardstyle situp yet, but looking forward to when I get there.)