Building mitochondria

ali

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
@Anna C, the muscle fibre talk: glad you liked it. Pop over to his site, andygalpin.com and he has a bit more in video.
Loved the lifestyle guru!!
 

305pelusa

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
I recently found this quote my Al Ciampa himself:
"It is not clear if power work (re: Simple & Sinister) alone provides physiological changes in mitochondria that contribute to the conditioning increases.1 A controlled carbohydrate diet, too, does not offer changes at the mitochondrial level, but does increase the efficiency of fatty acid use.1We do, however, know that LSD training at low heart rates, as per Lydiard/Maffetone, increases mitochondrial volume and output, and so, endurance performance.2"

I also have found a quote by Pavel where he virtually says that we do know that S&S does that:
"Although these experiments were successful, the above adaptations are fairly limited. It was not until the Soviet Union fell apart that anti-glycolytic training or AGT was revolutionized by Prof. Victor Selouyanov. He discovered how to make the fast and intermediate fibers aerobic.

What gives the slow fibers their endurance are the little organelles called mitochondria. Mitochondria allow one to efficiently produce energy for muscle contractions with the use of oxygen, aerobically. Selouyanov found a way of installing these aerobic machines into fast fibers!"

Then explains S&S does just that because it mimics that kind of training by pushing the "slight acidity button", but assures that fast twitch fibers with mitochondria don't become slower.


Ok, I'm tired of this confusion. @aciampa just settle it for me. Is Power training like S&S actually building mitochondria onto the fast twitch muscle fibers? Have you looked at the claims by Selouyanov (I can't find anything on the guy)? It honestly sounds crazy to me to increase the mitochondria in fast twitch fibers (I didn't even know they had much, if any, mitochondria in them... not that it would matter since they aren't fueled by them anyways no?).

The links btw:
Simple & Sinister Progression Tactic
Military Deployment Prep: A Program for Hardening the Soldier
 

Bryant W

Double-Digit Post Count
It honestly sounds crazy to me to increase the mitochondria in fast twitch fibers (I didn't even know they had much, if any, mitochondria in them... not that it would matter since they aren't fueled by them anyways no?).
Look up the different types of fast twitch muscle fibers. Type IIa have high mitochondrial density and can be trained aerobically.
 

305pelusa

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Look up the different types of fast twitch muscle fibers. Type IIa have high mitochondrial density and can be trained aerobically.
Type 2a are fast-oxidative fibers. These are also known as "Intermediate fibers". I'm aware these are the ones that can be converted either way.

However, that's not what Pavel alludes to:
"He discovered how to make the fast and intermediate fibers aerobic".

I don't know what you gather from that, but what I gather is that he's saying he's putting mitochondria into the intermediates (the 2a) and the fast ones (2b and 2x). Do you not gather the same?
 

Bryant W

Double-Digit Post Count
Ahh...The sentence I had quoted referenced fast twitch in general, so I wasn't sure you were aware of the types.

I'd be curious to see that article/reference from Pavel. Where can I find it? I'd like to read it in context.

Thanks
 

Kettlebelephant

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
We're living in the age of internet, smartphones etc. where everyone can find almost any info he/she wants within a matter of seconds while sitting on the toilette. Also the interest in all things fitness is at an all time high.
I still can't get my head around the fact that there's still things like that russian research that is unknown everywhere except for russia, because noone translated it...
Pavels methods produce results, but you have to be honest that all that "secret soviet" stuff seems like a gimmick he pulls out of his butt for marketing reasons and so that noone can say he's wrong, because beside him nobody in the western world knows this research exists or has access to it.
Apparantly it's true, but again it's hard to believe in todays world.
 

Mirek

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
We're living in the age of internet, smartphones etc. where everyone can find almost any info he/she wants within a matter of seconds while sitting on the toilette. Also the interest in all things fitness is at an all time high.
I still can't get my head around the fact that there's still things like that russian research that is unknown everywhere except for russia, because noone translated it...
Pavels methods produce results, but you have to be honest that all that "secret soviet" stuff seems like a gimmick he pulls out of his butt for marketing reasons and so that noone can say he's wrong, because beside him nobody in the western world knows this research exists or has access to it.
Apparantly it's true, but again it's hard to believe in todays world.
Well, there are thousands of (non-english) scientific articles published every week or so. I am not sure whether there exists a person that get paid just to translate them.
Also, you can use the same argument "in the age of internet, smartphones etc. where everyone can find almost any info he/she wants within a matter of seconds" for blaming
anyone who does NOT know Selouyanov because some of his articles are online and no one prevents you from reading them.

On the other hand, I agree that Pavel does not want to lose his 'exclusivity' in combining know how+russian.
 

Kettlebelephant

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
On the other hand, I agree that Pavel does not want to lose his 'exclusivity' in combining know how+russian.
It's kind of odd, right?
There's basically 2 or more players for everything - Coke & Pepsi, Apple & Microsoft, McDonalds & Burger King, Boing & Airbus, Mercedes & BMW...
After all those successful years for Pavel you got to think that another russian speaking person would have said "If he can do it, I can do it too"

Well, there are thousands of (non-english) scientific articles published every week or so. I am not sure whether there exists a person that get paid just to translate them.
True.
There's probably tons of info that doesn't make it out of china, partly because of their censorship.
 

Mirek

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
There is Tsatsouline & Fedorenko! Good that VF did not read that ... hahaha.

I suppose that in that "know how+russian" amalgam "know how" part plays a much larger role.
So you had a guy in late 90s that looks good, knows russian, knows biology/physiology/sport science,
AND brings those sexy kettlebells! And we did not resist! :)
 

Jevgenij

Triple-Digit Post Count
I speak Russian and have read a lot of Seluyanov's writings. His theory is somewhat oversimplified and mechanistic - there is no endurance, there are only heart volume and mitochondrias. If heart has enough hypertrophy and can pump enough oxygen to muscles, then you don't need LISS training, you only need mitochondrias/myofibrils in muscles, which are developed through many sets to failure and long rests between sets or through interval training like hill sprints with long rests. In theory an athlete with biggest heart/most mitochondrias will alway win. He came up with his theory in the 90s as an opposite against "Train hard, train a lot and push harder to win" mentality, that was popular and that destroyed many young athletes. It was important for that time. But maybe there are many more factors (endocrinal, neurological, psychological, technical) that play a role and this explains why there are no competitive endurance athlets like cyclists/skiers/swimmers that train in Seluyanov's way, they all train in a way that should destroy all their mitochondrias if Seluyanov is right. In reality they are succesfull and get better.

For hypertrophy his approach sounds like tradional bodybuilding training, except for the long rests.
Fast twitch fibers - 70%-85% RM, 5-10 sets to failure,7-10 days rest, 5-10m rest between sets
Slow twitch fibers - 30-50% RM, 3-5 superseries, superserie is 3x(30s work / 30s rest) to failure in last set,3-5 days rest, 5-10m rest between sets, partial reps - moving without stopping
This method is used by some competitive powerlifters and is very effective.
 

ali

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Fibre type-specific hypertrophy mechanisms in human skeletal muscle: potential role of myonuclear addition

May help answer some confusion? Or maybe not....The muscle fibre goalposts are changing with new knowledge. Perhaps some recent research aligns with older less published Russian research?
But yes, oxidative fast fibres and glycolytic slow and everything in-between......seems that we're not the only ones confused by it all.....


This may produce misclassifications in fibre types (e.g. MyHC I/IIa could be counted as MyHC I fibres). Hybrid fibre types make up a large proportion of human muscle and their physiology is under-researched due to limitations and confusion of identification
 
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North Coast Miller

More than 2500 posts
I speak Russian and have read a lot of Seluyanov's writings. His theory is somewhat oversimplified and mechanistic - there is no endurance, there are only heart volume and mitochondrias. If heart has enough hypertrophy and can pump enough oxygen to muscles, then you don't need LISS training, you only need mitochondrias/myofibrils in muscles, which are developed through many sets to failure and long rests between sets or through interval training like hill sprints with long rests. In theory an athlete with biggest heart/most mitochondrias will alway win. He came up with his theory in the 90s as an opposite against "Train hard, train a lot and push harder to win" mentality, that was popular and that destroyed many young athletes. It was important for that time. But maybe there are many more factors (endocrinal, neurological, psychological, technical) that play a role and this explains why there are no competitive endurance athlets like cyclists/skiers/swimmers that train in Seluyanov's way, they all train in a way that should destroy all their mitochondrias if Seluyanov is right. In reality they are succesfull and get better.

For hypertrophy his approach sounds like tradional bodybuilding training, except for the long rests.
Fast twitch fibers - 70%-85% RM, 5-10 sets to failure,7-10 days rest, 5-10m rest between sets
Slow twitch fibers - 30-50% RM, 3-5 superseries, superserie is 3x(30s work / 30s rest) to failure in last set,3-5 days rest, 5-10m rest between sets, partial reps - moving without stopping
This method is used by some competitive powerlifters and is very effective.
Thanks for breaking it down in simple terms.
 

Al Ciampa

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
Ok, I'm tired of this confusion. @aciampa just settle it for me. Is Power training like S&S actually building mitochondria onto the fast twitch muscle fibers? Have you looked at the claims by Selouyanov (I can't find anything on the guy)? It honestly sounds crazy to me to increase the mitochondria in fast twitch fibers (I didn't even know they had much, if any, mitochondria in them... not that it would matter since they aren't fueled by them anyways no?).
This confusion is partially a result of trying to apply linear thought to a system. It does not matter if the fastest fibers can grow mitochondria or not; what matters is that the fibers of the muscle work together to provide the results you're looking for.

If you improve from being able to snatch the 40kg once, to then 5 times, to then multiple sets of 5, to then for multiple sets for hours, you have significantly improved both your strength and conditioning. And the biological systems and tissues to support this improvement have adjusted themselves. It is very likely that improvements in mitochondrial number and function follow these changes, whichever fibers they live in.

Why do I think so? Because the best science we have tells us that the anaerobic systems cannot restore at a rate that covers the work.

For what its worth, I have a hunch that there are far more fiber types than we have identified, and this "spectrum" of fibers is what is causing some of the confusion.

Common sense applied to biology is far more enlightening than arguing about scientific papers. Trust me when I say that every author has some degree of "faith" written into the paper.
 

Al Ciampa

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
And before this derailment, there was the OPs question: @foobar, what you seek is to improve the strength-endurance of your upper body. Do lots of pull ups, push ups, and perhaps rows... and of course, perform your activity.
 

Bryant W

Double-Digit Post Count
The link is three posts above you. At the end of my post.
@305pelusa, I do read it the same way as you, that Pavel claims that A+A training will increase mitochondria in the fast twitch fibers. I don't find this difficult to believe, however. FTB and FTX fibers aren't without mitochondria, they just have lower densities of them. The idea of training them in a fashion that increases this density seems reasonable.

Thanks for pointing out your links in your earlier post, as I was also interested in whether he mentioned any resources that:

1. quantified the degree of change in mitochondrial density and what the measured implications would be (just how "aerobic" can a fiber that is normally "glycolytic" be? Does it change the time it takes for the muscle to fatigue and if so by how much?, Etc) ,
2. whether there was any implication in the article that the muscle fiber "transitioned/converted" to another fiber type, which is much more difficult for me to comprehend given other differences in fiber type such as size of the associated motor unit, differences with respect to energy substrate preferences, regulation of oxidative phosphorylation, dynamics of reactive oxygen species, etc

I didn't see any info related to #1, and he didn't comment directly about #2, but he did comment that: "Note: Before we continue, it must be stressed that developing mitochondria in a fast fiber does not make the fiber slower or weaker. Members of the Russian national judo team who have had tremendous success with anti-glycolytic conditioning routinely bench press 1.75-2 times their bodyweight.", which almost seems to me to be an indirect way of addressing this.

More directly related to training, exercising in a way for the "sole" purpose of increasing mitochondria seems like a surrogate goal to some other goal which remains unstated. Is one looking to generate more force, work for a longer duration, etc. And, assuming one doesn't have access to expensive lab equipment to serially measure one's own mitochondria, you could only measure it indirectly, and this would likely be a performance variable (length of time swinging the 24k nonstop for instance). In practical terms, why not just state the unstated performance goal, train in a way to improve that, and make assumptions about the concentration of your mitochondria.
 

ali

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Anyone training today? Haha....

Is it not a case of insulin, schminsulin or mitochondria, schmytichondria?
All parts of an integrated system that work together. Do the thing, adapt. Do the thing better and, with S&S, do other things better too hopefully being an all round hybrid efficient machine.

Well I've trained today anyway......
 
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