Barbell Can Zercher Squats do it all?

[North Coast Miller]

I'm wondering if the Zercher has any potential applications for Oly-lifting (mainly as an excuse to include them in my program).

I fear that the front squat has pretty much got things covered from that angle, still I'm wondering if there's anything the Zercher does that the front squat doesn't (not counting the additional abdominal training effect, 'breathing behind the shield' and elbow-crease conditioning).

If you use them with something like sandbag you can toss the thing in the air as an explosive component. I don't think it will translate enough to any actual Oly lifts to be directly beneficial, but the bracing at the bottom before you "go" is going to translate to a lot of movements.

With a heavy enough bag it won't even catch air, but is a very tough lift. My normal approach to shouldering heavier bags is to drag them across my thighs, get both ends in an underhook, and launch to one shoulder as I come up from a squat. That requires even more tension and bracing than just explosively firing the bag in front, and it catches air every time.

In general the only reason I don't do Zerchers more often or as a dedicated lift is it gasses my upper body and I don't really know where to slot it in a push, pull, hinge, squat format. I occasionally use the shoulder-cleaning version opposite getups on my conditioning power/grind days.

 

[MikeTheBear]

I'm wondering if the Zercher has any potential applications for Oly-lifting (mainly as an excuse to include them in my program).

I fear that the front squat has pretty much got things covered from that angle, still I'm wondering if there's anything the Zercher does that the front squat doesn't (not counting the additional abdominal training effect, 'breathing behind the shield' and elbow-crease conditioning).

The best training program is one that you will do consistently. And something you will do consistently is something you enjoy doing. Therefore, if you enjoy Zerchers then do them. I don't think they would offer anything that front squats don't already provide. However, the few times I tried this lift I noticed that my abs had to work like crazy. That alone may be a reason to do them.

 

[Jeff Roark]

getting better! 400lbs+ may be in the cards in due time.

 

[Geoff Neupert]

I'm wondering if the Zercher has any potential applications for Oly-lifting (mainly as an excuse to include them in my program).

I fear that the front squat has pretty much got things covered from that angle, still I'm wondering if there's anything the Zercher does that the front squat doesn't (not counting the additional abdominal training effect, 'breathing behind the shield' and elbow-crease conditioning).

I ran a cycle wondering the same thing a couple of years ago. The caveat was it was a "pure GPP" cycle, so I did zero Olympic lifts or variations.

I trained the ZSQ twice a week - one zone was 70-90% for 3-6 reps. The other zone was 50-70% for sets of 10.

I used the "lift" version Steve Freides described - deadlifting it up from the floor, placing it across the knees, pulling myself under, and then standing. I used flat soled shoes and sat in the hole for each rep - just like a FSQ.

The results:

1. I worked up to 405 for a single. (But only my training partner saw it - and the guy on the other platform, and no video or pics, so it doesn't count. ;-] )
2. I maintained my Power Snatch from above the knee.

Was it worth it?

• Psychologically it was a nice break from FSQ and BSQ.
• I put on about 15 pounds in 18 weeks.
• My pulls felt strong, but slow.
• But my numbers were only maintained, and didn't improve.
• For me, once again I proved, my body needs a very narrow range of specialized movements to push up my Oly numbers.

Hope that sheds some insight for you.

 

[Antti]

I ran a cycle wondering the same thing a couple of years ago. The caveat was it was a "pure GPP" cycle, so I did zero Olympic lifts or variations.

I trained the ZSQ twice a week - one zone was 70-90% for 3-6 reps. The other zone was 50-70% for sets of 10.

I used the "lift" version Steve Freides described - deadlifting it up from the floor, placing it across the knees, pulling myself under, and then standing. I used flat soled shoes and sat in the hole for each rep - just like a FSQ.

The results:

1. I worked up to 405 for a single. (But only my training partner saw it - and the guy on the other platform, and no video or pics, so it doesn't count. ;-] )
2. I maintained my Power Snatch from above the knee.

Was it worth it?

• Psychologically it was a nice break from FSQ and BSQ.
• I put on about 15 pounds in 18 weeks.
• My pulls felt strong, but slow.
• But my numbers were only maintained, and didn't improve.
• For me, once again I proved, my body needs a very narrow range of specialized movements to push up my Oly numbers.

Hope that sheds some insight for you.

Wouldn't one expect a pure GPP cycle to at best maintain the competitive lifts? Rather build a base to build them on in the next phase.

Curious, how good was your front squat compared to the zercher back then?

 

[Steve Freides]

Wouldn't one expect a pure GPP cycle to at best maintain the competitive lifts? Rather build a base to build them on in the next phase.

That's precisely the question under discussion - what is it that a Zercher cycle will and won't do for one.

-S-

 

[watchnerd]

I just don't get why I would Zercher squat when I can front squat more weight racked on my delts than I can hold in my elbows.

 

[Antti]

I just don't get why I would Zercher squat when I can front squat more weight racked on my delts than I can hold in my elbows.

What are your best lifts in each? How much have you done the zercher?

I have found I can always zercher squat more, and way more before I started training the front squat more seriously. That even as I zercher squat from the bottom like on a front squat.

 

[Antti]

That's precisely the question under discussion - what is it that a Zercher cycle will and won't do for one.

-S-

Well, I just referred to the GPP cycle by his words and what the general expectation in a program would be from one, not this particular one with the zercher. That said, I think maintaining the Olympic lifts is a great job.

Personally, like said, I think the zercher is an excellent lift. I'm a big believer in exercise variety and carryover so I have no problems believing the zercher can maintain or improve most of the big lower body lifts, depending on the context, of course. Just like the other great lower body lifts can.

 

[Steve Freides]

@Antti, right - I think the question is: Is doing only the Zercher SQ actually doing GPP? Is the carryover from the lift _that_ good?

-S-

 

[Antti]

@Antti, right - I think the question is: Is doing only the Zercher SQ actually doing GPP? Is the carryover from the lift _that_ good?

-S-

I think answering that question would require us to define GPP and I'm not sure if that's a discussion we'd like to take. In some manner GPP is anything and everything beside the competition exercise done competitively. For some it's everyday strength. Etc.


I'm surprised the zercher maintained the Olympic lifts.

I do believe the carryover from the zercher for, well, general physical preparedness, meaning life outside the sports in general this time, would be excellent and one of, if not, the best lower body exercise.

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

I'm surprised the zercher maintained the Olympic lifts.

I suspect this would only be the case if the trainee had reached a very high level of competence/autonomy in terms of the motor skills involved in performing the movements.

A lot of masters lifters with considerable experience in the sport and a solid grasp of technique follow programs that minimise their use of the full lifts in training (sometimes training the snatch and clean & jerk as little as once a week) and rely on other movements to maintain strength and speed.

 

[Steve Freides]

I think answering that question would require us to define GPP and I'm not sure if that's a discussion we'd like to take.

It's a discussion that takes place here at least once a week in some form.

I'm surprised the zercher maintained the Olympic lifts.

I think making that point is why @Geoff Neupert contributed his personal experience. The subject is Can Zercher Squats Do It All? which might also have been asked as, Is The Zercher Squat GPP? That not doing Olympic lifts maintained a high-level athlete's Olympic lifts is, IMO, excellent testimony to the powerful benefits of the Zercher. Yes, it would have been great if it _improved_ them, but I don't think that will happen for an athlete of Geoff's experience and accomplishment. For me, OTOH, I wouldn't rule out that both my squat and deadlift could improve if I did nothing but the Zercher for a cycle, and I may just try that after my current round of PL competitions is over. I'm considering a program of the full Zercher lift from the floor, the Zercher DL (bar starts in crooks of elbows while on the floor), Steinborn Squats and Inman walks.

I do believe the carryover from the zercher for ... general physical preparedness ... would be excellent and one of, if not, the best lower body exercise.

I don't think if it as a lower body exercise but rather a core exercise. But I guess that's the point, that's it really does hit a lot of things.

At the risk of stating the obvious here, we are in agreement about the ZSQ, @Antti, as I see it, and just saying the same thing in different ways.

-S-

 

[Steve Freides]

I used the "lift" version Steve Freides described - deadlifting it up from the floor, placing it across the knees, pulling myself under, and then standing. I used flat soled shoes and sat in the hole for each rep - just like a FSQ.

@Geoff Neupert, you've given an interesting description of the lift. Forgive a short ramble but I have a question or two and a comment or two as well.

When you say, "pulling myself under," you're describing a movement idea that I associated with a _sumo_ deadlift: getting the hips low and standing up from there. (At least that's how I read what you said.) For me, the Zercher lift has had more the character of a _conventional_ deadlift, where once the bar is in my elbows, my hips, which are almost completely back, rise first to the spot where I'd be at the start of a conventional hip-hinge pull, and then it's very much a hip hinge. My own conventional pull uses some push at the start, so my knees are a little forward, but you can't do that in a Zercher because you'd dump the bar, so I have to focus more on a pure hip hinge in my Zercher.

Could you say a bit more about what you mean by "pulling myself under" and "sat in the hole for each rep, just like a FSQ." I can FSQ a barbell but haven't done it much; my Zercher doesn't remind me of my FSQ as much as it reminds me of my deadlift. If there's a resemblance to a squat for me, it would be a two-kettlebell front squat.

Hopefully I have not over-analyzed ...

-S-

 

[Geoff Neupert]

@Geoff Neupert, you've given an interesting description of the lift. Forgive a short ramble but I have a question or two and a comment or two as well.

When you say, "pulling myself under," you're describing a movement idea that I associated with a _sumo_ deadlift: getting the hips low and standing up from there. (At least that's how I read what you said.) For me, the Zercher lift has had more the character of a _conventional_ deadlift, where once the bar is in my elbows, my hips, which are almost completely back, rise first to the spot where I'd be at the start of a conventional hip-hinge pull, and then it's very much a hip hinge. My own conventional pull uses some push at the start, so my knees are a little forward, but you can't do that in a Zercher because you'd dump the bar, so I have to focus more on a pure hip hinge in my Zercher.

Could you say a bit more about what you mean by "pulling myself under" and "sat in the hole for each rep, just like a FSQ." I can FSQ a barbell but haven't done it much; my Zercher doesn't remind me of my FSQ as much as it reminds me of my deadlift. If there's a resemblance to a squat for me, it would be a two-kettlebell front squat.

Hopefully I have not over-analyzed ...

-S-

Steve,

Here's what I do:

1. With the bar on the floor, set my feet in a squat stance, and deadlift the bar to my knees.
2. Place the bar just above my kneecaps and hold it there while I squat under the weight - full squat, butt resting on calves.
3. Holding the bar with my right hand, I remove my left hand and "hook" my elbow under the bar.
4. I then let go of the bar with my right hand and hook my right elbow under the bar.
5. At this point, I'm sitting in the bottom of the squat, like a Goblet Squat, but my arms are hooked under the bar by the elbows.
6. Then I push my chest out, look up, take a deep breath into my sacrum so I can feel my sides "fill," and look up.
7. I initiate the squat by pushing the floor down and away and finish standing tall.
8. To squat again, I break slightly at the knees, keep an arch in my lower back, and sit between my legs until my butt is on my calves.
9. I then repeat steps 6-8 for the prescribed number of reps.

Does this make sense?

 

[Geoff Neupert]

I just don't get why I would Zercher squat when I can front squat more weight racked on my delts than I can hold in my elbows.

That's a great question - one I initially asked.

Here's my answer:

You can "weasel out" of a FSQ.

Meaning, with a pair of weightlifting shoes and some joint-specific hyper-mobility, you can "make" the FSQ work for a little while.

The ZSQ finds your weaknesses, and then makes you fortify them.

That's why I think the ZSQ is a better choice for the "average" barbell lifter than either the FSQ or the BSQ.

Same reason I like the DFSQ - very similar in loading to the ZSQ.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[Geoff Neupert]

I'm surprised the zercher maintained the Olympic lifts.

I do believe the carryover from the zercher for, well, general physical preparedness, meaning life outside the sports in general this time, would be excellent and one of, if not, the best lower body exercise.

Only my Snatch, if I recall correctly.

The only thing that consistently pushes up my Clean + Jerk is the FSQ.

I've tested this time and time and time again.

I agree 100% with your assessment of the ZSQ.

As a side note, it makes the KB ballistics feel ridiculously easy (for me).

 

[Geoff Neupert]

Wouldn't one expect a pure GPP cycle to at best maintain the competitive lifts? Rather build a base to build them on in the next phase.

Curious, how good was your front squat compared to the zercher back then?

Good question - Possibly.

Really, I'm looking for a good GPP cycle to find and fix my weaknesses, as well as boost my overall work capacity.

By fixing those weaknesses in the past, I see a modest increase in my lifts, not just a maintenance. Because I'm never looking to just maintain anything.

My FSQ stunk at that time.

 

[Hardartery]

I just don't get why I would Zercher squat when I can front squat more weight racked on my delts than I can hold in my elbows.

For starters, you answered your own question there. The Zercher is also likely to give you better development in the mid-back. Zercher DL moreso than Zercher Squat. If your weak point is not there, there wouldnot be an advantage in the movement for you. The weak link is always the limit, so you work the weak link.

 

[Antti]

@Geoff Neupert, you've given an interesting description of the lift. Forgive a short ramble but I have a question or two and a comment or two as well.

When you say, "pulling myself under," you're describing a movement idea that I associated with a _sumo_ deadlift: getting the hips low and standing up from there. (At least that's how I read what you said.) For me, the Zercher lift has had more the character of a _conventional_ deadlift, where once the bar is in my elbows, my hips, which are almost completely back, rise first to the spot where I'd be at the start of a conventional hip-hinge pull, and then it's very much a hip hinge. My own conventional pull uses some push at the start, so my knees are a little forward, but you can't do that in a Zercher because you'd dump the bar, so I have to focus more on a pure hip hinge in my Zercher.

Could you say a bit more about what you mean by "pulling myself under" and "sat in the hole for each rep, just like a FSQ." I can FSQ a barbell but haven't done it much; my Zercher doesn't remind me of my FSQ as much as it reminds me of my deadlift. If there's a resemblance to a squat for me, it would be a two-kettlebell front squat.

Hopefully I have not over-analyzed ...

-S-

I squat the zercher as well like @Geoff Neupert . The form difference has been discussed in some earlier threads in some way. I don't think there's a consensus on how to do it.