Strong! programming suggest "tough" 4-5 RM.
I think either a "tough 4 or 5 RM" would be ok to start Strong but what I was relating in the Quasimodo email was he said use a pair of bells that are a tough double press and use that for the dcl/push press in Strong. Makes sense as a push press can use like 10 to 15 % more in weight.In before Geoff chimes in, what weight would you suggest?
Not enough coffee yet!ah, sorry, I thought the question was aimed at the Giant, my bad
/\ This.I think either a "tough 4 or 5 RM" would be ok to start Strong but what I was relating in the Quasimodo email was he said use a pair of bells that are a tough double press and use that for the dcl/push press in Strong. Makes sense as a push press can use like 10 to 15 % more in weight.
With PP, you could get away with the same reps. With C+PP, you'd have to halve those total reps.I've been thinking strong endurance/a+a style style double clean & push press protocol. Maybe 10RM bells, using q&d snatch 044 protocol timing, 10/2 version, but keeping the reps maybe in 3-5 range... focus on powerful reps and solid lock out...
You can also put on a fair amount of muscle, and strengthen your press doing push presses.I always felt that the push-press was the more natural way to press.
When a person is doing a physical work, it is natural to use the whole body in as efficient way as possible.
So training the push-press is training for more work capacity, in my thinking.
@Geoff Neupert how would you rate the muscle building capability of the clean and push press versus the clean and strict press?You can also put on a fair amount of muscle, and strengthen your press doing push presses.
@Dayz - I think they're very close.@Geoff Neupert how would you rate the muscle building capability of the clean and push press versus the clean and strict press?
I figure they must be close because the additional weight that can be used in the PP. Challenges the cleans more and provides greater systematic overload vs the tension of the press.
Amazing thank you for the response, Geoff, extremely informative as always !@Dayz - I think they're very close.
A lot of it depends on what your body is used to.
For example, if you've been running 12-20 weeks of C+Ps, C+PP will create a bigger response based upon the "novelty" of the "push" - systemic (neuromuscular AND metabolic) overload.
And vice versa - slower, higher tension of the Press creates more mechanical tension, a mechanism for muscle growth according to Dr. Brad Schoenfeld.
I will mention anecdotally speaking - when I make the switch in my training from Press to Push Press, my triceps are usually sore for the first week or so.
Hope that helps.
I did alot of push presses in a density format with Bryce lanes 50/20 programme.@Dayz - I think they're very close.
A lot of it depends on what your body is used to.
For example, if you've been running 12-20 weeks of C+Ps, C+PP will create a bigger response based upon the "novelty" of the "push" - systemic (neuromuscular AND metabolic) overload.
And vice versa - slower, higher tension of the Press creates more mechanical tension, a mechanism for muscle growth according to Dr. Brad Schoenfeld.
I will mention anecdotally speaking - when I make the switch in my training from Press to Push Press, my triceps are usually sore for the first week or so.
Hope that helps.
Personally I think that is incredibly reductive. Maybe what you're saying applies to merely increasing strength on a given lift? E.g. improving one's Squat or deadlift by manipulating volume, intensity, density etc.How hard is it really to design a training program? There are only a few basic progression templates, and one can always start with something simple and tweak it for more specific goals.
I bought a few training programs over the years, mostly out of interest. Every time it was a variation of a well known template.
There are three ways to progress: volume, intensity and density. This is verbatim from Dan John's Hardstyle book, but this is not a new concept by any means. Nothing new under the sun. Everything works for what, six, eight, twelve weeks? I believe designing your own program is more beneficial that getting a cookie cutter one. Most importantly, by designing and tweaking your own template you learn about the way your body responds to training. In the long term it is the best investment. JMO.
Interesting thoughts. I personally prefer to have a program to follow and prefer following an established coach's doctrines. The truth is that all too often I have done "my own thing" and usually over done it and ended up injured and uninspired. I'd rather have a written program to follow as long as its author is respected and/or knowledgeable. I guess to each his own.How hard is it really to design a training program? There are only a few basic progression templates, and one can always start with something simple and tweak it for more specific goals.
I bought a few training programs over the years, mostly out of interest. Every time it was a variation of a well known template.
There are three ways to progress: volume, intensity and density. This is verbatim from Dan John's Hardstyle book, but this is not a new concept by any means. Nothing new under the sun. Everything works for what, six, eight, twelve weeks? I believe designing your own program is more beneficial that getting a cookie cutter one. Most importantly, by designing and tweaking your own template you learn about the way your body responds to training. In the long term it is the best investment. JMO.
Maybe a little reminder of the first post of this thread will help:Personally I think that is incredibly reductive. Maybe what you're saying applies to merely increasing strength on a given lift? E.g. improving one's Squat or deadlift by manipulating volume, intensity, density etc.
But training to improve power, endurance, power endurance, recovery ability, slow twitch or fast twitch, or achieve balance, injury prevention etc does not play by the same rules.
See the difference between S&S, Q&D, A+A.
All involve programming swings, for example. But see how the swings are programmed very differently for different training outcomes, e.g. Mitochondrial biogenesis vs mitochondrial respiration....
Without having some pretty advanced understanding of the science involved, you'll never program that for yourself. How you "feel" doesn't necessarily relate to the training outcome. It can't be intuited like that.
Precise details of a program become more important at high level of performance and for a S&C program on top of a serious practice of a sport. Doesn't seem to be applicable here.I'm currently looking to spend some time working on the clean and push press... I'm not training for any particular goal at the moment, and I always feel great after heavy clean and push presses.
Depends on how much you* actually know vs. how much you think you know.How hard is it really to design a training program? There are only a few basic progression templates, and one can always start with something simple and tweak it for more specific goals.
I bought a few training programs over the years, mostly out of interest. Every time it was a variation of a well known template.
There are three ways to progress: volume, intensity and density. This is verbatim from Dan John's Hardstyle book, but this is not a new concept by any means. Nothing new under the sun. Everything works for what, six, eight, twelve weeks? I believe designing your own program is more beneficial that getting a cookie cutter one. Most importantly, by designing and tweaking your own template you learn about the way your body responds to training. In the long term it is the best investment. JMO.