Bauer
Level 8 Valued Member
ah, sorry, I thought the question was aimed at the Giant, my bad
Kettlebell Clean and Push Press Programming Recommendations
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John Grahill
Level 8 Valued Member
I think either a "tough 4 or 5 RM" would be ok to start Strong but what I was relating in the Quasimodo email was he said use a pair of bells that are a tough double press and use that for the dcl/push press in Strong. Makes sense as a push press can use like 10 to 15 % more in weight.
John Grahill
Level 8 Valued Member
Not enough coffee yet!ah, sorry, I thought the question was aimed at the Giant, my bad
/\ This.
If you can press it once, you can probably push press it 3-5x, assuming you have decent leg strength and coordination.
With PP, you could get away with the same reps. With C+PP, you'd have to halve those total reps.
Hope that makes sense.
You can also put on a fair amount of muscle, and strengthen your press doing push presses.
Dayz
Level 8 Valued Member
@Geoff Neupert how would you rate the muscle building capability of the clean and push press versus the clean and strict press?
I figure they must be close because the additional weight that can be used in the PP. Challenges the cleans more and provides greater systematic overload vs the tension of the press.
@Dayz - I think they're very close.
A lot of it depends on what your body is used to.
For example, if you've been running 12-20 weeks of C+Ps, C+PP will create a bigger response based upon the "novelty" of the "push" - systemic (neuromuscular AND metabolic) overload.
And vice versa - slower, higher tension of the Press creates more mechanical tension, a mechanism for muscle growth according to Dr. Brad Schoenfeld.
I will mention anecdotally speaking - when I make the switch in my training from Press to Push Press, my triceps are usually sore for the first week or so.
Hope that helps.
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Dayz
Level 8 Valued Member
Amazing thank you for the response, Geoff, extremely informative as always !
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Long cycle push press (a clean before each push press) or a single clean before the push presses? Obviously double bells are better than one.
Cearball
Level 6 Valued Member
I did alot of push presses in a density format with Bryce lanes 50/20 programme.
When I switched to your the giant program (which I think is ace) I noticed it in my abs & adductors in particular at first by comparison .
The press really seemed to effect my core.
?
Purely anecdotal but that was my experience.
6was9
Level 2 Valued Member
How hard is it really to design a training program? There are only a few basic progression templates, and one can always start with something simple and tweak it for more specific goals.
I bought a few training programs over the years, mostly out of interest. Every time it was a variation of a well known template.
There are three ways to progress: volume, intensity and density. This is verbatim from Dan John's Hardstyle book, but this is not a new concept by any means. Nothing new under the sun. Everything works for what, six, eight, twelve weeks? I believe designing your own program is more beneficial that getting a cookie cutter one. Most importantly, by designing and tweaking your own template you learn about the way your body responds to training. In the long term it is the best investment. JMO.
I bought a few training programs over the years, mostly out of interest. Every time it was a variation of a well known template.
There are three ways to progress: volume, intensity and density. This is verbatim from Dan John's Hardstyle book, but this is not a new concept by any means. Nothing new under the sun. Everything works for what, six, eight, twelve weeks? I believe designing your own program is more beneficial that getting a cookie cutter one. Most importantly, by designing and tweaking your own template you learn about the way your body responds to training. In the long term it is the best investment. JMO.
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Dayz
Level 8 Valued Member
Personally I think that is incredibly reductive. Maybe what you're saying applies to merely increasing strength on a given lift? E.g. improving one's Squat or deadlift by manipulating volume, intensity, density etc.
But training to improve power, endurance, power endurance, recovery ability, slow twitch or fast twitch, or achieve balance, injury prevention etc does not play by the same rules.
See the difference between S&S, Q&D, A+A.
All involve programming swings, for example. But see how the swings are programmed very differently for different training outcomes, e.g. Mitochondrial biogenesis vs mitochondrial respiration....
Without having some pretty advanced understanding of the science involved, you'll never program that for yourself. How you "feel" doesn't necessarily relate to the training outcome. It can't be intuited like that.
John Grahill
Level 8 Valued Member
Interesting thoughts. I personally prefer to have a program to follow and prefer following an established coach's doctrines. The truth is that all too often I have done "my own thing" and usually over done it and ended up injured and uninspired. I'd rather have a written program to follow as long as its author is respected and/or knowledgeable. I guess to each his own.
6was9
Level 2 Valued Member
Maybe a little reminder of the first post of this thread will help:
Precise details of a program become more important at high level of performance and for a S&C program on top of a serious practice of a sport. Doesn't seem to be applicable here.
Whatever template this gentleman chooses to follow he is guaranteed to get at least some improvement in power, power endurance, mitochondrial respiration and what not.
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barrak
Level 6 Valued Member
A great deal of thought, focus on goals and target audience, cumulative experience, trial and error, field testing, and yes, compromises, go into a successful and seemingly simple product.
An equal level of investment in a custom product can create a better individual fit. However, few would have the pre-requisite qualifications or the wherewithal to commission such a custom product.
Would that stop me from trying a mod or two every now and then? Never!
An equal level of investment in a custom product can create a better individual fit. However, few would have the pre-requisite qualifications or the wherewithal to commission such a custom product.
Would that stop me from trying a mod or two every now and then? Never!
Folks, let's play nicely here. @6was9 is entitled to his opinion, and makes a good point - in the absence of a specific goal, he could structure a program for himself, using the lifts that make him feel good, and not be concerned if he's making progress towards any particular level of technical prowess or heavy weight. @John Grahill makes a good point, however, that one can easily enough over- or under-train. Programming for yourself requires the ability to self-regulate, and @6was9 make the point that one can learn this from programming one's self.
To each his own, as the aforementioned @John Grahill said.
@Zach Silver, if you agree with @6was9, then you don't need programming advice. You've proposed a template in your original post - try it, see how you like it, keep a training log, and let us know how it goes.
-S-
To each his own, as the aforementioned @John Grahill said.
@Zach Silver, if you agree with @6was9, then you don't need programming advice. You've proposed a template in your original post - try it, see how you like it, keep a training log, and let us know how it goes.
-S-
Depends on how much you* actually know vs. how much you think you know.
And at the end of the day, "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."
If you have the time and energy to read up, experiment, and figure this all out on your own, have at it, I say.
And if you can look back over your training log and demonstrate to yourself by the numbers, progress, then keep going.
If not, a professionally designed program may be the better approach for you, unless you really enjoy the trial and error process, especially one that's more error.
Finally, one of the "trends" I've seen over the last 20 years, and especially over the last couple with the resurgence of kettlebell training, is the trend towards complexity, under the guise of variety. A lot of moving parts can make you feel like you're "getting a good workout" and "making progress," but at the end of the day, all that counts is that the numbers are moving up. In my book, the simpler you can make this (so you can [consistently] measure it), the better.
Just my $0.02...
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*All "you" references are the "collective," or "global" you.
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