all posts post new thread

Kettlebell Deadlifts VS Squat: Which best supplements KB training?

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
What is "natural" would require an agreed-upon working definition of that term. How about, "something we might do as adults if we worked on a farm 200 years ago?" (Reminds me of that old joke, "Manual labor isn't just the president of Argentina" - nothing bad intended about Argentina, of course, just a reference to the fact that we in Western societies, as a group, don't do much of it any more.)

If you agree with my definition, then I think deadlifts would win the "what's most natural" contest among all the power and Olympic lifts. We might add pullups, and various carries, too - shouldering something and carrying it, e.g.,

-S-
 
@Steve Freides, I don't agree with that definition, but even if I do for the sake of discussion, I think that a farmer performs way too varied of tasks to make any characterizations of what is "natural". Reminds of my granddad who had a carriage full of dirt he needed to unload. It was standing next to a wall. My granddad pressed his back into the wall, then pressed both his feet into the carriage, wedging himself between the two. Then he proceeded to press the carriage until it tipped over. That is exactly the type of movement done on a leg press. Is that unnatural?

I think a farmer 200 years ago would need a lot of varied strength - of a squatting type, of a pulling type, of a pressing type. It would all be specific to the task and no one movement would be sufficient to cover it all. This is why I think no movement should be characterized as more or less natural. Simply more or less effective at a given task.
 
Glen said:
Blasphemy ;)

Personally I'm keen on the view of primal movement patterns pushed by Chek.

Hip hinge
Squat
Lunge
Gait
Push
Pull
Rotation

Your training needs to cover all seven in some shape or form.

Arguably deadlift and swing (or variant) are the same thing. The load through the choice of implement (barbell vs Kettlebell) may change the result from training (power, strength, muscle) but they are the same - a hip hinge and unless your Goblet or front squatting with KB a barbell squat would round out your development more.
Click to expand...

All of these seem obvious to me, except for 'gait'....

Surely it must mean something other than just walking around normally?

Or maybe that's all its saying..'go walk'?
 
watchnerd said:
All of these seem obvious to me, except for 'gait'....

Surely it must mean something other than just walking around normally?

Or maybe that's all its saying..'go walk'?
Click to expand...

Gaits a complex movement pattern which doesn't get fully worked in the other patterns.

In terms of training it would be loaded carries, sled work etc
 
Kozushi said:
Now, getting the bar onto my back seems a bit annoying, so I hope the double kettlebell squat is indeed "sufficient".
Click to expand...

For those without a squat rack (I don't use one), a power clean + front squat has some benefits compared to the back squat.

Eliot's video on the topic of "Why Front Squats Are Better for Athletes" is good...just get past his bro exterior. He's actually really smart on movements:

 
watchnerd said:
For those without a squat rack (I don't use one), a power clean + front squat has some benefits compared to the back squat.

Eliot's video on the topic of "Why Front Squats Are Better for Athletes" is good...just get past his bro exterior. He's actually really smart on movements:

Click to expand...

Yes, for things like judo you want to keep your upper body strong and to handle off-centre weights. Front squats challenge your arms more, which isn't a bad thing even though you can't load as much maximum weight on yourself as you can with back squats.
 
I think the barbell deadlift and the double KB front squat is the perfect combination for good enough general strength for non-athletes. No squat rack required. Reduced risk of injury. The KB front squat is more forgiving in terms of mobility and form than the barbell squat while staying VERY challenging. Squats are good at higher rep. than deadlift. Picking something off the floor or pushing something up seem like natural patterns, think atlas stone or lifting a heavy bag onto a shelf/counter. I can't remember ever lifting from my back. The barbell front squat requires significant mobility through the wrists for many people. I can't do it properly...
 
guardian7 said:
The barbell front squat requires significant mobility through the wrists for many people. I can't do it properly...
Click to expand...

I think most people think it's mostly their wrists, when in reality it's the lack of thoracic extension (after all the bar is racked on the delts, not held in the wrists) that is the major sticking point.

And the BB front squat's ability to improve thoracic extension is one major reason why I think more people need to do it.
 
watchnerd said:
I think most people think it's mostly their wrists, when in reality it's the lack of thoracic extension (after all the bar is racked on the delts, not held in the wrists) that is the major sticking point.

And the BB front squat's ability to improve thoracic extension is one major reason why I think more people need to do it.
Click to expand...
If you could elaborate on this that would be great. I kind of don't understand the technical lingo.

I think with front squats you can't simply put load as much weight on yourself as you can with back squats because you have to hold the bar or the bells up in front of you in your arms instead of resting them on something. I'm well aware that the arms are very involved in back squats too, but they're the only things holding the bar up in front squats. If my goals are to balance arm strength with leg strength without getting too heavy, then the front squats seem quite good.

Personally I'm trying to follow the Strongfirst programs to the book, so I'm not doing more than playing with doubles yet as I haven't tested to see if I can one arm press the 48kg bell to qualify me for the Return of the Kettlebell program, but I certainly felt I was getting a heck of a LOT out of doing doubles front squats with the 32kg kettlebells!!!
 
Kozushi said:
If you could elaborate on this that would be great. I kind of don't understand the technical lingo.
Click to expand...

Thoracic extension refers to the ability to extend or flex your thoracic spine, which should be movable (unlike your lumbar spine). Put simply, it's the ability to lift your chest up and rotate your shoulders back while keeping your lumbar spine locked:






Kozushi said:
I think with front squats you can't simply put load as much weight on yourself as you can with back squats because you have to hold the bar or the bells up in front of you in your arms instead of resting them on something. I'm well aware that the arms are very involved in back squats too, but they're the only things holding the bar up in front squats. If my goals are to balance arm strength with leg strength without getting too heavy, then the front squats seem quite good.
Click to expand...

Actually, arms aren't an issue, at least not with a barbell. If you're doing it right, you're not using your arms at all. The bar is resting on your delts. Here is an example practice drill by Klokov:



As for not being able to do enough weight....well, unless you're a powerlifter competing in back squats, I think the anatomic capabilities of how much weight is possible with front squats is well within the realm of any normal lifter.

Here is Klokov again, front squatting 265 kg / 583 pounds:



So, yeah....you can go pretty damn heavy with front squats.
 
Last edited:
watchnerd said:
Thoracic extension refers to the ability to extend or flex your thoracic spine, which should be movable (unlike your lumbar spine). Put simply, it's the ability to lift your chest up and rotate your shoulders back while keeping your lumbar spine locked:








Actually, arms aren't an issue, at least not with a barbell. If you're doing it right, you're not using your arms at all. The bar is resting on your delts. Here is an example practice drill by Klokov:



As for not being able to do enough weight....well, unless you're a powerlifter competing in back squats, I think the anatomic capabilities of how much weight is possible with front squats is well within the realm of any normal lifter.

Here is Klokov again, front squatting 265 kg / 583 pounds:



So, yeah....you can go pretty damn heavy with front squats.
Click to expand...

So in other words eventually doing front kettlebell squats with a pair of 48kg bells is really no big deal compared with barbellers. It would seem that in spite of having the "big 6" which are all great moves with the kettlebell, selected out of dozens of more moves known and done out there as the most useful ones and covering "everything" you need, it's the kettlebell moves that you can't do with a barbell that will likely stand the test of time (if you own a barbell as I do), I'm thinking swings and TGUs especially. These are unique to kettlebells, or are at least better done with kettlebells than with a barbell. Hmmm... well maybe the gripping difference for kettlebells keeps them in the ring as simply put "different" moves. With the kettlebell front squat since you're racking the bells, there is certainly a good deal of arm engagement.

Those are inspirational and instructive videos! THANK YOU!
 
Kozushi said:
So in other words eventually doing front kettlebell squats with a pair of 48kg bells is really no big deal compared with barbellers.
Click to expand...

A 2 x 48kg KB front squat is definitely a bit harder than a 96kg barbell front squat, for a number of reasons:
  • More stabilization issues
  • Center of gravity forward of the heel
All that being said, if you have already have a barbell, it's the superior front squat tool if you want to go heavy as you can load it up more and progressive overloads are easier...all assuming you know how to front squat properly.

If you have mediocre squat mechanics, the KB front squat is probably more self-correcting and forgiving at lighter weights.

Kozushi said:
It would seem that in spite of having the "big 6" which are all great moves with the kettlebell, selected out of dozens of more moves known and done out there as the most useful ones and covering "everything" you need, it's the kettlebell moves that you can't do with a barbell that will likely stand the test of time (if you own a barbell as I do), I'm thinking swings and TGUs especially. These are unique to kettlebells, or are at least better done with kettlebells than with a barbell.
Click to expand...

IMO, use the right tool for the job.

Kettlebells are best in class tools for ballistics like the swing and snatch.

For old timey retro lifts like TGUs and bent presses, I'm not sure KBs are necessarily better than dumbbells, as opposed to just different. But they're just fine.

For the big, full body, 'go heavy' lifts like deadlifts and squats, I think the barbell pulls well ahead of KBs.

And for some upper body work, I actually prefer gymnastics rings. And yoga as additional 'bodyweight' routines.

I just use whatever tool suits my training needs. And while I compete in Olympic lifting, I don't think of myself as a 'barbeller'...or a 'kettlebeller', for that matter.

Kozushi said:
Those are inspirational and instructive videos! THANK YOU!
Click to expand...

I'm glad it was useful!
 
watchnerd said:
A 2 x 48kg KB front squat is definitely a bit harder than a 96kg barbell front squat, for a number of reasons:
  • More stabilization issues
  • Center of gravity forward of the heel
All that being said, if you have already have a barbell, it's the superior front squat tool if you want to go heavy as you can load it up more and progressive overloads are easier...all assuming you know how to front squat properly.

If you have mediocre squat mechanics, the KB front squat is probably more self-correcting and forgiving at lighter weights.



IMO, use the right tool for the job.

Kettlebells are best in class tools for ballistics like the swing and snatch.

For old timey retro lifts like TGUs and bent presses, I'm not sure KBs are necessarily better than dumbbells, as opposed to just different. But they're just fine.

For the big, full body, 'go heavy' lifts like deadlifts and squats, I think the barbell pulls well ahead of KBs.

And for some upper body work, I actually prefer gymnastics rings. And yoga as additional 'bodyweight' routines.

I just use whatever tool suits my training needs. And while I compete in Olympic lifting, I don't think of myself as a 'barbeller'...or a 'kettlebeller', for that matter.



I'm glad it was useful!
Click to expand...
I don't compete in weights; my sport is judo, but it's interesting how similarly you think about a lot of things to me including the part about gymnastics rings. I like those a lot as I don't have to think or by hardly awake - just hold myself up and do a few dips - and I'm getting stronger.
 
watchnerd said:
I think most people think it's mostly their wrists, when in reality it's the lack of thoracic extension (after all the bar is racked on the delts, not held in the wrists) that is the major sticking point.

And the BB front squat's ability to improve thoracic extension is one major reason why I think more people need to do it.
Click to expand...

Yes, I was thinking of doing the Barbell front squat unloaded for that reason. I have been doing face pulls and other things so far.
 
OP here,

Since posting this I have been squatting and deadlifting in the gym regularly (with NO kettlebell training at all) and have found that my deadlift has increased very little it seems, whereas my pause squats have increased. The weight hasn't exploded but my form and power from bottom position definitely has.
 
Opiaswing said:
OP here,

Since posting this I have been squatting and deadlifting in the gym regularly (with NO kettlebell training at all) and have found that my deadlift has increased very little it seems, whereas my pause squats have increased. The weight hasn't exploded but my form and power from bottom position definitely has.
Click to expand...

That seems pretty logical. I don’t know your age / height / weight, but a 400+ lb deadlift out of the gate is very respectable, and would suggest your posterior chain was already past the novice level, possibly from the KB swings, so further gains will come more slowly.

Whereas if you weren’t squatting, you’ll have all those rapid newbie gains to enjoy.

Congrats on the progress!
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom