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Bodyweight Do push ups give you breast-like pecs?

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dobie said:
I agree with Steve- I feel like the standing 1 arm press is way more valuable then push-ups.
Other things can be done and are more suitable for more endurance related training.
IMO- 1 arm press has more transfer to real life living amd activities
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Are there many people who are really good at push ups, with great form, who can't do everyday things over their heads because they didn't overhead press?

I'm pretty skeptical given how often push ups were / are used as GPP for military / LEO in basic training, bootcamp, etc, when compared to overhead pressing.
 
I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, but I find it amusing that I sometimes see sentences like this, that one could find to be at ends with each other:

"Train for aesthetics? How vain! Be a man, train for performance and function!"

And

"Breast like pecs from the bench press? Oh no! Can't have it, must do something else!"
 
watchnerd said:
I'm pretty skeptical given how often push ups were / are used as GPP for military / LEO in basic training, bootcamp, etc, when compared to overhead pressing.
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Push ups don't require any extra equipment, produce a nice round number for Excel tables/setting standards/general bureaucratic self-licking cone activity and anyone can (or "can") do at least a few. I'm sure these considerations have been historically far more important than any real benefits of the exercise.
 
Re: @Hung 's midsection: sometimes a "gut" isn't as much a gut as it is anterior pelvic tilt pushing your abdomin forward. If you're doing a lot of "extended" work (think arched bench, hingey squat, deadlift....) this may be likely.

watchnerd said:
Are there many people who are really good at push ups, with great form, who can't do everyday things over their heads because they didn't overhead press?
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Yes. I've met them, and trained them. Anterior press for days, overhead position, not so much.
 
bluejeff said:
Re: @Hung 's midsection: sometimes a "gut" isn't as much a gut as it is anterior pelvic tilt pushing your abdomin forward. If you're doing a lot of "extended" work (think arched bench, hingey squat, deadlift....) this may be likely.


Yes. I've met them, and trained them. Anterior press for days, overhead position, not so much.
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I've met habitual benchers who have that problem.

But push ups?

Also -- overhead press isn't quite the same thing as doing 'regular everyday stuff' overhead.

I would have thought the scap motion, serratus action, and reasonable good core/thoracic function would give them healthier shoulders that, even if they didn't have good OHP technique, could do ordinary overhead activities just fine.
 
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TimothyGander said:
Push ups don't require any extra equipment, produce a nice round number for Excel tables/setting standards/general bureaucratic self-licking cone activity and anyone can (or "can") do at least a few. I'm sure these considerations have been historically far more important than any real benefits of the exercise.
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Sure.

But do we have evidence from the military usage of push ups / lack of overhead pressing that it leads to soldiers unable to do things overhead?

Maybe with today's nerd neck / generation-smart-phone soldiers it does?
 
watchnerd said:
I've met habitual benchers who have that problem.

But push ups?

Also -- overhead press isn't quite the same thing as doing 'regular everyday stuff' overhead.

I would have thought the scap motion, serratus action, and reasonable good core/thoracic function would give them healthier shoulders that, even if they didn't have good OHP technique, could do ordinary overhead activities just fine.
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I used to teach handstands, which requires very good overhead ROM. Plenty of people in the gym could do great horizontal pressing (pushups, pseudo planche pushups, etc) but not get past something like 120 degrees shoulder flexion without arching a through the back (or internally rotating the shoulders and retracting the scaps to compensate). I attribute it to lack of scapular upward rotation, something that requires the arm going past something like 90 degrees of flexion.

So reaching into a cabinet to get a glass, sure. That's typically in that 120 degree range, give or take. Pressing a weight overhead or doing inversions, not as much in my experience.
 
I think the overhead pressing is talked about in high regard as a standard because most people in modern life are so immobile and weak that they cannot even have full range of motion overhead forget about pressing double kettlebells of any weight. This may even include your average gym goer.

On the other hand too many people bench and end up with further shoulder injuries (not because the bench is a bad exercise).
 
Antti said:
I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, but I find it amusing that I sometimes see sentences like this, that one could find to be at ends with each other:

"Train for aesthetics? How vain! Be a man, train for performance and function!"

And

"Breast like pecs from the bench press? Oh no! Can't have it, must do something else!"
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"Hint of pecs" being desirable is actually an aesthetic opinion.

;)
 
We’re moving more and more into the territory of “the best press” movement. Pavel wrote an article on this voting the flat bench as the winner. From memory some close seconds we’re dips and kettlebell presses (only loosing due to the shoulder mobility requirements of the dips and shear volume requirements of the press).

More and more I’m becoming convinced of the opinion that program minimums are not the best way to go. Increasingly research is showing that movement variation produces better strength and hypertrophy results (I’m not a scientist and if you can show me this isn’t the case I will concede).

I feel it’s therefore better to choose 2-4 ‘primary’ lifts to focus on rather than to train exclusively. So if you want to bench press make that your focus - then train push ups, kettlebell presses and dips as assistance movements also. If you think your getting Brest pecks you can always do more overhead work to compensate without changing focus
 
Simply strong said:
We’re moving more and more into the territory of “the best press” movement. Pavel wrote an article on this voting the flat bench as the winner. From memory some close seconds we’re dips and kettlebell presses (only loosing due to the shoulder mobility requirements of the dips and shear volume requirements of the press).

More and more I’m becoming convinced of the opinion that program minimums are not the best way to go. Increasingly research is showing that movement variation produces better strength and hypertrophy results (I’m not a scientist and if you can show me this isn’t the case I will concede).

I feel it’s therefore better to choose 2-4 ‘primary’ lifts to focus on rather than to train exclusively. So if you want to bench press make that your focus - then train push ups, kettlebell presses and dips as assistance movements also. If you think your getting Brest pecks you can always do more overhead work to compensate without changing focus
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Thinking about this further it actually makes a lot of sense to me to just train for the deadlift only. I’ve watched a lot of Ivan’s ‘squat every day’ training via his YouTube channel and he once spoke about finding the overhead press beneficial for his squat (basically because it strengthened his traps).

A LOT of lifts could have a place in a deadlift + variety program. I stared thinking and I could see myself doing box squats, front squats, good mornings, sled pushes & pulls, hip thrusts, leg press, farmers carries, swings/snatches, pull ups, lay pull downs, dumbbell rows, kettlebell cleans, goblet/Dbl front squats, hamstring curls, lunges, leg raises and ab wheel rollouts, rotator cuff isolation work (including external rotations with cables, dumbbell reverse flys, scapular pull ups etc), those captain crush grippers, finger board work etc etc etc as assistance movements.

Then there’s deadlift variations such as power cleans, rack pulls, deficit pulls, snatch grip, sumo, with/without straps, overhand grip, weightlifting clean pulls, speed reps, pause reps, are you wearing weightlifting shoes or flats? RDLs, sumo RDLs, ‘hang shrugs’, isometric pulls at a variety of points etc etc etc

Then you could even say that presses are deadlift assistance movements to maintain overall muscular balance. So a few push ups, overhead presses or dips at the end of your sessions could still be considered as part of your deadlift training. You might not train them with as much intensity but leaving them out is not advised.

So my 2c would be to not get bogged down in “which exercise is best”. With just one lift as a focus there’s a marathon of movements you can include without the fear of “if I do this one movement I’ll get a saggy chest”
 
watchnerd said:
scratching my head at that one

I draw the line at having something in the "deadlift family" if the bar end position is above the waist and racked on the shoulders.
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It’s a pull from the floor. I’d say there’s probably a good amount of carry over which is why I included it. My point was more that there’s a bunch you can do without getting too bogged down or nit picky. Even if the benefit is relatively minor I don’t think there’s too much harm in doing a phase of some power cleans prior to your deadlift work.
 
Simply strong said:
It’s a pull from the floor. I’d say there’s probably a good amount of carry over which is why I included it. My point was more that there’s a bunch you can do without getting too bogged down or nit picky. Even if the benefit is relatively minor I don’t think there’s too much harm in doing a phase of some power cleans prior to your deadlift work.
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It's a ballistic move that involves triple extension, neither of which is true of the deadlift.

It's not a grind from the floor.

It has more in common with the snatch than with the deadlift.

In the StrongFirst taxonomy of "1 ballistic + 1 grind" for a minimalist program, power cleans are in a different genus than grinds like deadlifts.
 
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watchnerd said:
It's a ballistic move that involves triple extension, neither of which is true of the deadlift.

It's not a grind from the floor.

It has more in common with the snatch than with the deadlift.

In the StrongFirst taxonomy of "1 ballistic + 1 grind" for a minimalist program, power cleans are in a different genus than grinds like deadlifts.
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I think as movements go the similarities outweigh the differences. They are both a barbell exercise, a pull from the floor using both arms and both legs via the sand grip using the same foot stance. In both exercises you brace your core in a very similar starting position using similar breathing techniques. I’d argue the power clean has more in common with the conventional deadlift than sumo does.
 
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