Other/Mixed Elite Power & Oly Lifters using StrongFirst methods

[Steve Freides]

This -

This is a great question and I am finding this out is spades. I am running Rogoznikov and I am finding is way too unintense for me (is that a word) and I think this is because my weights lifted (despite being in the proper range) are not nearly as stimulating as a 900lbs Squatter doing the exact same rep range and %. I have heard on other forums that an 80% of 600 is as draining as an 80% of 1000 because it is 80%...this is absolutely not true and this is why larger heavier lifting athletes need much more recovery than smaller lighter lifting athletes.

is an interesting question and one that, for years, was addresses solely by Wilks points. (If there was another formula in use, I was unaware of it.) See Wilks coefficient - Wikipedia or any of quite a number of other links out there about this system.

If you now visit Powerlifting Rankings, you'll find other options as well, including both the original and the 2020 update of Wilks' system:



I agree that it would be interesting to see if and how Wilks or one of the other systems would/could/should be applied to the math of PlanStrong. I will solicit the opinions of the two people who teach PlanStrong.

-S-

 

[Antti]

Ben is my coach and we are using Rogozhnikov + S&S for me right now. I am not world class elite but have a 537, 400, 550 total at 51yo and raw. Ben is a fantastic guy and coach

That's a great total for your age! What's your weight class?

You can find the standards for elite all over the internet. Although federations differ in small ways they will list totals and individual lifts as elite based on BW and age.

I did look but couldn't find ones for the IPF. USAPL did have some, though. They see top 2,5% as elite.

This is a great question and I am finding this out is spades. I am running Rogoznikov and I am finding is way too unintense for me (is that a word) and I think this is because my weights lifted (despite being in the proper range) are not nearly as stimulating as a 900lbs Squatter doing the exact same rep range and %. I have heard on other forums that an 80% of 600 is as draining as an 80% of 1000 because it is 80%...this is absolutely not true and this is why larger heavier lifting athletes need much more recovery than smaller lighter lifting athletes.

I think the tolerances for volume and intensity are very much individual and I would expect them to change through time.

 

[DocMike]

My weight class is fat but not superfat...lol. my last comp was 308 and u der. This may will be 274 and under and then next year eill be the 240 class.

 

[Philippe Geoffrion]

This is a great question and I am finding this out is spades. I am running Rogoznikov and I am finding is way too unintense for me (is that a word) and I think this is because my weights lifted (despite being in the proper range) are not nearly as stimulating as a 900lbs Squatter doing the exact same rep range and %. I have heard on other forums that an 80% of 600 is as draining as an 80% of 1000 because it is 80%...this is absolutely not true and this is why larger heavier lifting athletes need much more recovery than smaller lighter lifting athletes.

Looking at this cycle, I found the training sessions made sense intensity-wise but the frequency was very low.

Someone posted a link from a blog called “Tapered Bodies” on adapting this protocol for a raw lifter, as I expect most of Rogoznikov’s lifters are geared, and lifting quite a bit more.

The heavy days are HEAVY though, as you’re expected to PR on your 3 x 6 sets once a month. Perhaps lifting 3 days a week, alternating the bench and SQ/DL days with more medium/light workouts and one heavy day per lift a month would suffice?

 

[Alan Mackey]

This is a great question and I am finding this out is spades. I am running Rogoznikov and I am finding is way too unintense for me (is that a word) and I think this is because my weights lifted (despite being in the proper range) are not nearly as stimulating as a 900lbs Squatter doing the exact same rep range and %. I have heard on other forums that an 80% of 600 is as draining as an 80% of 1000 because it is 80%...this is absolutely not true and this is why larger heavier lifting athletes need much more recovery than smaller lighter lifting athletes.

My point exactly!

Being intermediate sucks, because you can’t train with the same intensity as a novice, but advanced programs don’t work either. It’s a programming nightmare, trying to find the sweet spot between intensity and volume.

Very, very, very nice total, by the way.

 

[Boris Bachmann]

I have heard on other forums that an 80% of 600 is as draining as an 80% of 1000 because it is 80%...this is absolutely not true and this is why larger heavier lifting athletes need much more recovery than smaller lighter lifting athletes.

These people are idiots. Only someone who has never lifted heavy (or maybe was extremely blessed to begin with and has not trained long/hard) would believe this to be true.

 

[Steve A]

My response to his question was, I'm sure there are, and although I don't know names off the top of my head (as I don't follow Oly or Powerlifting too closely) that I know both the SFL and the PlanStrong courses are based off of data from the last 40 or 50 years of some of the best lifters around the world.

Would anyone be able to give me a name of an elite athlete known for following a StrongFirst template?

Thanks!

I think your original answer is the right one. But it would probably be good to be more specific on what really is a StrongFirst template. A template from an elite lifter does not become a StrongFirst template by way of a StrongFirst author - even Pavel - writing about it.

 

[william bad butt]

I could easily see an elite athlete (fighter for example) using a Strongfirst program. Where strength/endurance is 1 component of their sport.

I very much doubt that there are many elite level lifters (powerlifters or olympic lifters) using Strongfirst programs. Not a knock against Strongfirst. At that level, they are more likely using customized/individualized programs. Maybe using Strongfirst "principles" or "philosophy" is more likely.

Regards,

Eric

 

[Starlord]

Sheiko Gold AI. You're welcome.

 

[Anna C]

Maybe using Strongfirst "principles" or "philosophy" is more likely.

Would anyone be able to give me a name of an elite athlete known for following a StrongFirst template?

Mira Kwon Gracia, masters weightlifter
Tracy Cook, masters powerlifter

Both compete at national level, and both train with StrongFirst principles.

 

[william bad butt]

Mira Kwon Gracia, masters weightlifter
Tracy Cook, masters powerlifter

Both compete at national level, and both train with StrongFirst principles.

I stand corrected

 

[Anna C]

I stand corrected

I was agreeing with you actually... I'm sure they rotate programs and have done some StrongFirst programs to the letter at times, but mostly do programs specific to them from their coaches. However everything is heavily guided by StrongFirst principles and they do include lots of what we typically see in StrongFirst courses and certs in their training.

 

[Antti]

@Anna C great that you found some that fit the original question. I don't know about weightlifting but I had a look at Tracy Cook, it's awesome she has an elite total even at Master's age class.

Now:

However everything is heavily guided by StrongFirst principles and they do include lots of what we typically see in StrongFirst courses and certs in their training.

What are these exactly? Are they something that are equally applicable to novices and the elite? Or are there some differences?

 

[Anna C]

@Anna C great that you found some that fit the original question. I don't know about weightlifting but I had a look at Tracy Cook, it's awesome she has an elite total even at Master's age class.

Now:



What are these exactly? Are they something that are equally applicable to novices and the elite? Or are there some differences?

Actually I think they could both be considered International level... Mira recently won gold at Pan Am for her age and weight class and with a new national record in snatch, C&J, and total! Mira is also on Instagram on her page and also Industrial Strength Gym and is a StrongFirst Team Leader. She was one of my instructors for SFG II. Tracy was selected for a national team to compete internationally, but the event was cancelled in 2020. She has been coached by @Zack Henderson for years. Both Zack and Tracy are on Instagram and certainly worth following!

As for principles, @Zack and @Tony Gracia are both here sometimes and could probably tell us best... But from what I observe, both Tracy and Mira include a lot of kettlebell and bodyweight strength training that is done per StrongFirst methods (get-ups, windmills, presses, swings, bottom-up work, carries, push-ups, pistols, etc.); they follow programs, periodize their training, and include planned rests and deloads; they focus on the mental side as well as the physical; they both live "strength has a greater purpose" and are personally involved in their sport to include officiating and encouraging others; they use the irradiation/tension principles as taught by StrongFirst; they demonstrate that your "set-up is the first rep" often repeated by Fabio and other StrongFirst instructors; they rarely fail a lift and understand what intensity to spend most a training cycle; they know how to "fail with integrity" on the rare occasion of trying for a new max that doesn't go (and generously share lessons learned); they include mobility work using methods that I've learned from StrongFirst; they specifically training "glutes, abs, and grip" as StrongFirst teaches... and probably more.

 

[Benjamin Renaud]

Not sure what kind of records/performance is needed to fit the bill with the original question, but Granville Mayers (SF team leader) seems to be quite a powerlifter.

 

[Steve Freides]

I very much doubt that there are many elite level lifters (powerlifters or olympic lifters) using Strongfirst programs.

L'il ol' me is the national champ in my age/weight/division in the USPA. My numbers, based on last April's meet, put me just shy of the UPSA Elite total - I think I was off by 5 kg. Mind you, all this is because the numbers for people my age/weight/division are ridiculously low, but that's another conversation.

-S-

 

[Anna C]

L'il ol' me is the national champ in my age/weight/division in the USPA. My numbers, based on last April's meet, put me just shy of the UPSA Elite total - I think I was off by 5 kg. Mind you, all this is because the numbers for people my age/weight/division are ridiculously low, but that's another conversation.

-S-

Way to go, Steve! That's awesome.

Yeah I spent some time looking at Weightlifting totals for my age and weight class, W55 81kg (I just turned 54 but USAW counts as if your b-day is 1/1 in your birth year). Looks like I'm going to be competitive in my first national meet! I already have USAW totals close to the National Masters records. I'm looking at the Howard Cohen American Masters- Baton Rouge, LA, Competition Dates Aug 10-14.

 

[Steve Freides]

Looks like I'm going to be competitive in my first national meet! I already have USAW totals close to the National Masters records.

Awesome cool, @Anna C - looking forward to hearing how you do.

-S-

 

[Steve Freides]

L'il ol' me is the national champ in my age/weight/division in the USPA. My numbers, based on last April's meet, put me just shy of the UPSA Elite total - I think I was off by 5 kg. Mind you, all this is because the numbers for people my age/weight/division are ridiculously low, but that's another conversation.

I just looked up the numbers in lbs - I was 12 lbs below Elite for 2021 for the USPA. That's the 2nd highest classification they have - International Elite is higher.

-S-

 

[william bad butt]

I just looked up the numbers in lbs - I was 12 lbs below Elite for 2021 for the USPA. That's the 2nd highest classification they have - International Elite is higher.

-S-

I stand corrected again!

I have no doubts that you use Strongfirst practices, philosophies, etc... But do you use actual templates such as PTTP (without modifying?)?

Eric