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Fat loss and Muscle gain (not versus)

Xcal

Level 5 Valued Member
I'm firmly in the camp that people who need to lose fat must also gain muscle. There are outliers but I'm not one. I currently need to lose maybe 5kg of fat that built up around my abdomen (the high risk buildup!) instead of around my @$$. i'd LOVE 5kg of fat around my @$$, but a flat@$$ is not my body/genetic makeup.

anyway. I know from theory *and* personal experience that we should comfortably lose about half-kg (1pound) of fat per week until we reach our goal. the excercise focus (to my knowledge and previous practice) has been on cardio rather than muscle building. now that I'm working with KB's I want some idea of how to factor growing muscle into the picture. the pop-research always says "don't be concerned if you are not losing weight because you may be putting on muscle and muscle is denser....". but there is no guideline for muscle building as there is for fat loss.

in your experience: what is a comfortable idea of how much muscle weight one can put on by following a reasonable training program?

in my case, I started checking my weight about 6 weeks ago (88.3kg 1.84m), I fluctuated between 87.x and 89.xx and still 88.5 today:) :) :) so I like to think that I'm firmly within that pop-research statistic.
my last 9 months of fat/muscle has been chaotic. I was in great shape in October 22 (other than my medical issue which was well controlled then and is under controll now). I changed medication and became almost bedridden in November, switched back to my med schedule in December and recovered by Jan, then had an accident and was again totally inactive for 2 months. almost 4 months of inaction in this period, and now I have a very dangerous body composition and my medical condition. I am able to tackle the fat and live with the med-steroids.

I slowly built myslef up in March and started training hard again by April. I started S&S by the end of April to take ownership of the 24kg (doing 10x10 1h swings every other day now, not using the 16kg for swings). I feel the muscle come back all along my posterior chain (neck down to calves). but my weight is still the same. I'm not overly concerned by these numbers, I feel that I'm on the right track.

I'll repeat my question after this long story :)
how do you measure muscle growth?
what is a comfortable muscle growth per week or month?
this is so subjective that I don't even like to ask these questions! so lets frame it as 2 parts: What is your own experience? what would you recomend for a 'normal' person who trains hard 2or4 times per week. NOT and elite athlete, or an actor who is building to a role, or someone who has a personal trainer at their doorstep every morning, or....

Is there a benchmark that I can work towards, like: I really want to have the ideal nuclear family with 2.5 children ;)
 
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Although the above is true, I have been able to lose fat and gain some muscle quite a few times.

The key is both good training (sorry, S&S won't cut it) and eating MORE protein than you think.

In fact, research shows that you need to consume more protein when trying to lose fat than when trying to gain muscle:

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When I was doing the above, I had to increase my protein intake to 180-200 grams per day at a body-weight of 130-140lbs in order to get to a shredded weight of 125-129lbs (6-9% body fat) at 5'3 (I used to be 5'4"), VERY small bones, long arms, and TERRIBLE genetics:

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I pretty much maintained this over a 10-year period (36-45) making refinements along the way in strength, muscle mass, conditioning, body fat, etc.

My training always consisted of 3 total-body sessions each week IN ADDITION to other training depending on my goals at the time (obstacle course races, Murph Challenge, TSC, getting shredded for summer, etc.).

I've trained as little as 3-4x/week (30 minutes) and as much as 2-3x/day (all under 30 minutes).

But my protein always stayed high while carbs were almost always low.
 
yes, I agree that I cannot maximise hypertrophy while focusing on fat loss, and I'm sure that if I focus on maximising hypertrophy I will lose fat, but not at a maximum efficiency. my main mission is to lose this abdominal fat. I have definitely stepped up my protein intake in the past 2 months or so wtih eggs, dairy, seed-curries (beans, peas, lentils,etc), read meat almost every week instead of 1or2 per month and lowered my bread and pasta consumption (not low carb, I just ate too much carb in the last months)....I am missing the quantity of pizza that I ate! comfort food during my downtime periods.

I just finished a 9 week running based program: 3 S&S per week, running 30-50min =2 per week, long long run of 70min per week.
I started another 9 week program on Sunday but the runs are longer, building to a 2hour long run per week. and will push the 24kg KB harder too. I'll continue swinging 10x10 1h for a few weeks then hope to rack and press.
I do believe that this is a good enough approach to fat loss -> dominated by appropriate diet!!!

renegadenate said:
I pretty much maintained this over a 10-year period (36-45)
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I had the same when I moved from 100kg of FAT to 82kg of non-fat when I got serious about Kung-Fu in 2004 (age 30 then). My KuFu class watched me melt over a few months :) I kept it more or less stable at 85kg even though I stopped KuFu in 2012. I moved started Intermittent Fasting when I went above 90kg in 2014/2015. Now I'm seriously concerned about my body composition again! I'm not uncomfortable with 88kg, it's just that my body stores all my fat around my abdomen which increases the risks of heart-attacks and organ failures, and my body is alraedy under attack by this autoimmune disease so I can't afford organ issues...My liver must be able to process the little alcohol that I can drink.

HOwever, I digress towards my experience. back to my inexperienced queries: Can I measure my muscle growth, and what is reasonable growth? can this even be answered at the moment?
 
Xcal said:
I'll repeat my question after this long story :)
how do you measure muscle growth?
what is a comfortable muscle growth per week or month?
this is so subjective that I don't even like to ask these questions! so lets frame it as 2 parts: What is your own experience? what would you recomend for a 'normal' person who trains hard 2or4 times per week. NOT and elite athlete, or an actor who is building to a role, or someone who has a personal trainer at their doorstep every morning, or....

Is there a benchmark that I can work towards, like: I really want to have the ideal nuclear family with 2.5 children ;)
Click to expand...

I measure it with Dexa scans.

At this stage of my life (post age 50), and training age (decades), it's not as fast as when I was younger and a noob.

The most rapid results I've had in recent years was at the height of the pandemic lock down.

Between 6/19/2020 and 12/23/2020, I put on 4.3 lbs of muscle.

So .72 lbs/month.

Most periods aren't that good.
 
Xcal said:
yes, I agree that I cannot maximise hypertrophy while focusing on fat loss, and I'm sure that if I focus on maximising hypertrophy I will lose fat, but not at a maximum efficiency.
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I've lost 6lbs on BuiltStrong Minimalist so far!

At the same time, I have gained muscle as my biceps have grown.

I'll post my final results next week as I'm on Week 8: Test week.

Xcal said:
my main mission is to lose this abdominal fat. I have definitely stepped up my protein intake in the past 2 months or so wtih eggs, dairy, seed-curries (beans, peas, lentils,etc), read meat almost every week instead of 1or2 per month and lowered my bread and pasta consumption (not low carb, I just ate too much carb in the last months)....
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Excellent!

Xcal said:
I am missing the quantity of pizza that I ate! comfort food during my downtime periods.
Click to expand...
Make healthy versions of those foods for your higher carb days.

Xcal said:
I just finished a 9 week running based program: 3 S&S per week, running 30-50min =2 back to my inexperienced queries:
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I would do S&S in addition to some heavy-ish Presses (or Clean & Presses) and Double Kettlebell Front Squats (or heavy Goblet Squats). The Swings and Get-ups alone won't be enough for your goals.

All that running may or may not help you reach your goals. Too much could make it hard to gain muscle and strength.

If you keep your runs "easy," it may help with fat loss.

You'll need to really keep an eye on it.

Xcal said:
Can I measure my muscle growth, and what is reasonable growth? can this even be answered at the moment?
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Take photos and body measurements. Get body fat tested by Hydrostatic under water weighing, Bod Pod, Dexa, or calipers (by experienced person).

Track all weights lifted. Are you getting stronger? That's a good sign.

Reasonable fat loss for men is 1/2 pound per week per Precision Nutrition.

Muscle gain is much slower at around 1/2-1 pound per month.

You'll need photos and measurements to track differences.
 
renegadenate said:
Make healthy versions of those foods for your higher carb days.
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It is almost criminal how much healthier food from your own kitchen can be. It's amazing.

Making pizza dough from scratch is terrifyingly easy and, when prepared under your control, can do you a seriously potent service.

There's a deep truth to a quip I think I heard from Dr Alan Aragon, "you should probably be eating your top 20 favorite foods, when dieting"

Another quip I think I heard from Dr. Eades "maybe we're not spending enough time in the kitchen."

The way I figure it , in the way I eat, and train, it's most important that you're in the driver's seat. A little deliberateness can go a long way.
 
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silveraw said:
I just want to reiterate the point that S&S will hardly add muscle in perfect dietary conditions. Much less in a deficit.

You need a lot more volume or intensity preferably both.
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It blows my mind that people think they can use just S&S (or Q&D, or "The Best All-Around Training Method Ever") and gain muscle and/or strength and lose fat.

These are minimalist programs purposely designed to be used IN ADDITION to other training. Yes, they are great programs on their own, and they will build some strength/power to a degree. But if that's all you do, you're still missing out on a lot of potential progress.

But muscle gain and/or fat loss? Probably not unless you're a complete beginner. Even then, there are far better (and faster) ways to do so.
 
silveraw said:
You need a lot more volume or intensity preferably both.
Click to expand...
What would be sufficient volume if using only swings and get-ups? S&S is 600 swings and 60 get-ups weekly. Double, triple or quadruple? Or even more?
 
mikko said:
What would be sufficient volume if using only swings and get-ups? S&S is 600 swings and 60 get-ups weekly. Double, triple or quadruple? Or even more?
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If doing S&S 6x/week, you would have that volume.

It's still not going to build much muscle. Swings are a ballistic (power) exercise. Get-ups are a strength movement.

You need Squats, Presses, Rows, Pull-ups/Chin-ups, etc.
 
With the promise of not having to diet, this actually worked for me:
www.strongfirst.com

“Dry Fighting Weight”: Fat Loss Through Strength | StrongFirst

Let's look to both science and weightlifters to see to do for fat loss. May you reach your target weight without the dishonor of dieting and aerobics!
www.strongfirst.com
It was a great free sample. I bought an extended program by the same trainer that makes even greater promises for simultaneous muscle gain and fat loss (and has people on the forum saying it delivers) called Easy Muscle.
go.chasingstrength.com

EASY MUSCLE-Problem Aware 2 - Chasing Strength

go.chasingstrength.com
I will start training with it in a few weeks.
 
renegadenate said:
It blows my mind that people think they can use just S&S (or Q&D, or "The Best All-Around Training Method Ever") and gain muscle and/or strength and lose fat.

These are minimalist programs purposely designed to be used IN ADDITION to other training. Yes, they are great programs on their own, and they will build some strength/power to a degree. But if that's all you do, you're still missing out on a lot of potential progress.

But muscle gain and/or fat loss? Probably not unless you're a complete beginner. Even then, there are far better (and faster) ways to do so.
Click to expand...
Xcal said:
I'm firmly in the camp that people who need to lose fat must also gain muscle. There are outliers but I'm not one. I currently need to lose maybe 5kg of fat that built up around my abdomen (the high risk buildup!) instead of around my @$$. i'd LOVE 5kg of fat around my @$$, but a flat@$$ is not my body/genetic makeup.

anyway. I know from theory *and* personal experience that we should comfortably lose about half-kg (1pound) of fat per week until we reach our goal. the excercise focus (to my knowledge and previous practice) has been on cardio rather than muscle building. now that I'm working with KB's I want some idea of how to factor growing muscle into the picture. the pop-research always says "don't be concerned if you are not losing weight because you may be putting on muscle and muscle is denser....". but there is no guideline for muscle building as there is for fat loss.

in your experience: what is a comfortable idea of how much muscle weight one can put on by following a reasonable training program?

in my case, I started checking my weight about 6 weeks ago (88.3kg 1.84m), I fluctuated between 87.x and 89.xx and still 88.5 today:) :) :) so I like to think that I'm firmly within that pop-research statistic.
my last 9 months of fat/muscle has been chaotic. I was in great shape in October 22 (other than my medical issue which was well controlled then and is under controll now). I changed medication and became almost bedridden in November, switched back to my med schedule in December and recovered by Jan, then had an accident and was again totally inactive for 2 months. almost 4 months of inaction in this period, and now I have a very dangerous body composition and my medical condition. I am able to tackle the fat and live with the med-steroids.

I slowly built myslef up in March and started training hard again by April. I started S&S by the end of April to take ownership of the 24kg (doing 10x10 1h swings every other day now, not using the 16kg for swings). I feel the muscle come back all along my posterior chain (neck down to calves). but my weight is still the same. I'm not overly concerned by these numbers, I feel that I'm on the right track.

I'll repeat my question after this long story :)
how do you measure muscle growth?
what is a comfortable muscle growth per week or month?
this is so subjective that I don't even like to ask these questions! so lets frame it as 2 parts: What is your own experience? what would you recomend for a 'normal' person who trains hard 2or4 times per week. NOT and elite athlete, or an actor who is building to a role, or someone who has a personal trainer at their doorstep every morning, or....

Is there a benchmark that I can work towards, like: I really want to have the ideal nuclear family with 2.5 children ;)
Click to expand...
I think that best way would be the strenght route. You may get some body composition benefits, some muscle depending on your strength training history. Something like 200g of protein and ~ 2100kcal daily intake. Clean and press that 24kg followed by pull ups or chin ups. Goblet Squats and Swings for the lower body. Ab wheel and you're good to go.
I've been I weight categorie sports and would do your hypertrophy dreams next fall. Now let's get rid of the belly fat.
2.5 children? Isn't it 1.5?
 
renegadenate said:
It's still not going to build much muscle. Swings are a ballistic (power) exercise. Get-ups are a strength movement.
Click to expand...
silveraw said:
Try double and see how it goes.

You will probably want to switch to a program more in line with the goal
Click to expand...
Thanks, I've read from here that those movements aren't best for muscle building. I have personal experience with S&S program only so I wanted to get an idea what would it take to build muscle. I'm happy with S&S as is, I'll proceed by the book until timeless sinister or progress stalls, then I will do kettlebell WOD program.
 
Single KB clean and press stimulated more muscle growth for me than the S&S movements. I did about 5 days of S&S a week, sets of 10 swings per the book - so the swing volume per week was higher than any volume total I logged with the C&P. So I doubt ramping up your S&S swing and TGU volume is going to stimulate more muscle growth.

Double KB C&P has by all reports should be even more efficient than single KB C&P, although you need the mobility for achieve full lockout with both arms if you want to avoid hurting your shoulder. This movement has had a solid reputation for muscle building since the days of Sig Klein - maybe earlier. So why not do the proven exercise to get the results you want?

I'm doing the C&P under the Easy Muscle program fwiw
 
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I’m at the end of phase 2 of KB strong. Dbl C&P. Been doing it for 6 months or so. Been in a small caloric deficit for 6 weeks or so. Down only a few kgs and a pant size but shirts are up from XL to XXL. Not ripped or anything but pretty happy with how things are going. At least 10 weeks to go on phase 3, which should help even more.


One thing, the higher rep sets have increased my work capacity a tonne, and im finishing off by carrying my 24’s for 600-1000m in 30m reps after doing C&P. I couldn’t dream of doing that when I started, I’d be too gassed. Which is in turn helping weight loss/recomp. It’s slow, but I’m 43 yrs old and am pretty happy with how it’s going.
 
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