Fat loss and Muscle gain (not versus)

[Washed up Meathead.]

Something to note Regarding total protein intake when muscle gain and improved body composition is the main goal. Total protein intake is important but more important for building muscle is the Amino acid leucine content in the protein.

The average weight person needs about 3 grams of leucine per feed to maximally stimulate MPS(muscle protein synthesis)
Having a lot of leucine circulating all day is vital if you want to build muscle at a decent pace.

 

[silveraw]

I mean 200g of protein its a lot. I rarely have more than 100g and have to eat meat to reach that amount. So im interested what other people eat to get more protein

It’s possible without meat, but it does make it much easier.

Here is a straightforward video showing how to do it.

 

[Hung]

Orally is my preference.

jab is my fav <3

 

[Xcal]

Also, intense endurance running training is really hard to mix with hypertrophy

I assume you refer to a long and hard run. I don't do these anymore. I would ideally like to get back to a 21km run every 2 months as my max effort. but all the training for this will be long easy runs and short hard runs. if I get this right, then I will have no worries about my body-fat composition My current focus is to get me closer to my running levels before I got sick in 2021.

I just started a 10 week program is
- easy long runs, hard short intervals/tempo runs (this is the 10week program from Polar website)
- S&S until i'm very happy with 24kg swings (maybe 2or3 more weeks)
- after S&S I will slowly switch to C&P
- tons of squats. I started yesterday with GTG body-weight squats and pushups.
- Weekly WalKBies for 30min with my 16kg KB (have stepped this up from the 12kg WalKBies). this is one of my favourite training sessions. outdoors with the KB cannot beat it.

 

[watchnerd]

I assume you refer to a long and hard run. I don't do these anymore. I would ideally like to get back to a 21km run every 2 months as my max effort. but all the training for this will be long easy runs and short hard runs. if I get this right, then I will have no worries about my body-fat composition My current focus is to get me closer to my running levels before I got sick in 2021.

I just started a 10 week program is
- easy long runs, hard short intervals/tempo runs (this is the 10week program from Polar website)
- S&S until i'm very happy with 24kg swings (maybe 2or3 more weeks)
- after S&S I will slowly switch to C&P
- tons of squats. I started yesterday with GTG body-weight squats and pushups.
- Weekly WalKBies for 30min with my 16kg KB (have stepped this up from the 12kg WalKBies). this is one of my favourite training sessions. outdoors with the KB cannot beat it.

21 km is a half marathon.

It's going to be very hard to do that and maximize hypertrophy at the same time, unless you're 'enhanced'.

The two goals are in adaptation conflict with each other.

 

[Xcal]

21 km is a half marathon.

It's going to be very hard to do that and maximize hypertrophy at the same time, unless you're 'enhanced'.

The two goals are in adaptation conflict with each other.

I agree. my goal is strongendurance not hypertrophy. However I do understand that more muscle = better fat burning. hence my dual focus.

Given my own history with 21km (maybe ran 21 of them over the past 15 years?), I can definitely add a good few kg of muscle and still be very comfortable with 21km or more (but I generally don't want to run more than this). Given my past few weeks in the 5km program, I think that I can improve my pace while using less effort because WTH : improved glutes, lower back, posture, ankle mobility, "packed shoulders" has tremendously lowered my running effort, etc

 

[watchnerd]

I agree. my goal is strongendurance not hypertrophy. However I do understand that more muscle = better fat burning. hence my dual focus.

Given my own history with 21km (maybe ran 21 of them over the past 15 years?), I can definitely add a good few kg of muscle and still be very comfortable with 21km or more (but I generally don't want to run more than this). Given my past few weeks in the 5km program, I think that I can improve my pace while using less effort because WTH : improved glutes, lower back, posture, ankle mobility, "packed shoulders" has tremendously lowered my running effort, etc

I guess I'm really confused at this point as to what your goals are.

You say your goal is "not hypertrophy", but then you say you understand that "more muscle = better fat burning."

 

[Xcal]

I want to grow some more muscle. I don't want to grow lots more muscle.

does this help?

 

[watchnerd]

I want to grow some more muscle. I don't want to grow lots more muscle.

does this help?

It's not like you're going to wake up one morning with 15 lbs of muscle overnight and go:

"OMG HOW DID I GET SO BIG??!!"

 

[svencandy]

I want to grow some more muscle. I don't want to grow lots more muscle.

does this help?

I guess what @watchnerd is trying to say, and it comes from a place of extensive training history, is that it is very hard to build muscle.

By adding in the volume of running that you plan to do, there is a concern that you will not build any muscle at all.

You also mentioned you are not well, and on meds, this may also affect your ability to build muscle.

From what I can tell, your number 1 priority appears to be to lose bodyfat/get lean.

Why don't you just try walking for now, as well as strength training (ROP) to get lean?

 

[Xcal]

Why don't you just try walking for now, as well as strength training (ROP) to get lean?

I have a 2 weekly walks:
- Sunday slow-run which includes a bit of walking (total 90min today)
- a 30 min walk with my 16kg Kb (mondays or tuesdays)

and strength
- 100 1h swings every 2or3 days with 24kg kb
- now restarted snatches with 16kg...thanks to suggestions in this thread. the suggestions were C+P, but I somehow did a set of snatches instead and stuck with it.
- warmups are either crawling+deadbugs, or Halos+Goblet Squats.

and speed
1 interval/tempo/hills/etc per week. usually 45-50min including warmup/cooldown

and recovery: usually 1 day off for every 3or4 days on. I may take 2 days off after a burn-the-ship session or if I train 5+ days in a row (rare, but it happens).

and flexibility: usually 1 dynamic and 1 static per week but lagging behind on this since I started crawling/deadbugs 2 months ago. I am working on GTG ankle/toe mobility

I strongly believe that this 2/week running is a great minimal approach for endurance GPP and should not interfere with any strength gain. Similar to the minimal KB programs built to enhance sports-specific skills. n=me=1 with: past 18 years of running + past 18 months of KB + past 2 years of sickness (ok, sick for 9 months, then medical management for a year, with a 2month hiccup)

yesterday was total of 30minutes:
- crawling and deadbugs,
- 20 sets of 5 swings 24 kg (every 45seconds: 15 on and 30 off)
- rest
- stronger hand 10 snatches with 16kg
- rest
-strong hand 10 snatches with 16kg (poor form in the last few reps: that KB was all over the place except directly above my left ear)

It's not like you're going to wake up one morning with 15 lbs of muscle overnight

This brings me to my original question in this thread: What is a reasonable muscle gain, and over what period of time?

 

[watchnerd]

This brings me to my original question in this thread: What is a reasonable muscle gain, and over what period of time?

@renegadenate and I both gave answers that landed in the same .5-1 lb / month range

That's assuming you have everything really dialed in for calories and training and recovery. And you're focused on hypertrophy and not trying to send competing signals.

It will be most rapid your first 6-12 months, slow down for your 2nd-3rd year, and then move at a snail's pace the closer you get to your genetic max.

 

[Don Fairbanks]

I have a 2 weekly walks:
- Sunday slow-run which includes a bit of walking (total 90min today)
- a 30 min walk with my 16kg Kb (mondays or tuesdays)

and strength
- 100 1h swings every 2or3 days with 24kg kb
- now restarted snatches with 16kg...thanks to suggestions in this thread. the suggestions were C+P, but I somehow did a set of snatches instead and stuck with it.
- warmups are either crawling+deadbugs, or Halos+Goblet Squats.

and speed
1 interval/tempo/hills/etc per week. usually 45-50min including warmup/cooldown

and recovery: usually 1 day off for every 3or4 days on. I may take 2 days off after a burn-the-ship session or if I train 5+ days in a row (rare, but it happens).

and flexibility: usually 1 dynamic and 1 static per week but lagging behind on this since I started crawling/deadbugs 2 months ago. I am working on GTG ankle/toe mobility

I strongly believe that this 2/week running is a great minimal approach for endurance GPP and should not interfere with any strength gain. Similar to the minimal KB programs built to enhance sports-specific skills. n=me=1 with: past 18 years of running + past 18 months of KB + past 2 years of sickness (ok, sick for 9 months, then medical management for a year, with a 2month hiccup)

yesterday was total of 30minutes:
- crawling and deadbugs,
- 20 sets of 5 swings 24 kg (every 45seconds: 15 on and 30 off)
- rest
- stronger hand 10 snatches with 16kg
- rest
-strong hand 10 snatches with 16kg (poor form in the last few reps: that KB was all over the place except directly above my left ear)
View attachment 21675

This brings me to my original question in this thread: What is a reasonable muscle gain, and over what period of time?

Your question could generate a rabbit/black hole, but here are a few numbers for a ballpark. As mentioned, I'd suggest finding your current lean/fat mass for a baseline.

https://fitbod.me/blog/muscle-gain-in-a-month/

 

[North Coast Miller]

This brings me to my original question in this thread: What is a reasonable muscle gain, and over what period of time?

There are (IMHO) only a handful of outcomes if trying to put on muscle:

- nothing notable happens. Your diet is not high enough protein and/or your training plan isn't successfully creating demand for more muscle. Your muscle to bf ratio is unchanged.

- you gain fat. Your diet is too low in protein or too high in fat and in a surplus, or you're losing muscle while gaining fat.

- you gain muscle. If isocaloric and stable weight it means you must be losing fat. If in a surplus it means you are gaining some mix of fat and muscle. Your diet has sufficient protein and your training is sufficiently demanding to trigger muscle synthesis.

My opinion looking back through the thread is that your exercise selection and strategy are not the ideal choice for gaining muscle mass. It can work but will be a slow train coming.

Amount of muscle gain and over what time is heavily influenced by a number of factors, there is no stock answer. The above responses are a reasonable estimate, but one could just as easily gain zero.

 

[bluejeff]

I have to admit getting a little lost between this thread and another recent one, so apologies if I repeat something or don’t recall a post.

@Xcal reading through this thread I am reminded a little of myself and some missteps I have made with training in the past. I did some quite intense kung fu growing up and it instilled the idea that I had to be training as hardcore as possible at all times. Im not saying you are doing this, but I think it’s easy to get carried away with wanting to do too many things at a time for your goals. “Too many rabbits” as they say around here.

While I like the idea of combining training to make it more compact and accessible, I have been finding that keeping my “cardio” cardio, and my strength/hypertrophy training actually strength and hypertrophy focused, I get better results. The blunt way of saying this is that if you want to build some muscle you (most of time!) have to train to build muscle. A couple runs each week won’t ruin that, but S&S and some goblet squats probably won’t get you what you want. Also, like @watchnerd said, muscle is probably a lot harder to gain that you might be thinking. So if increasing muscle mass is a goal, I would focus on that. Swings and getups are nice, but hypertrophy training (imo) they are not. You may see a little if you are a relative novice at training, but beyond that….

If you have some lingering health issues, you want to lose fat, and you want to gain muscle, I think it might be best to keep things as simple as you can. A couple easy, tolerable runs per week, some strength/hypertrophy training a couple times a week, and some mobility/flexibility stuff sprinkled in. Match diet to that as others have already outlined.

Hope it helps and happy training.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I have to admit getting a little lost between this thread and another recent one, so apologies if I repeat something or don’t recall a post.

@Xcal reading through this thread I am reminded a little of myself and some missteps I have made with training in the past. I did some quite intense kung fu growing up and it instilled the idea that I had to be training as hardcore as possible at all times. Im not saying you are doing this, but I think it’s easy to get carried away with wanting to do too many things at a time for your goals. “Too many rabbits” as they say around here.

While I like the idea of combining training to make it more compact and accessible, I have been finding that keeping my “cardio” cardio, and my strength/hypertrophy training actually strength and hypertrophy focused, I get better results. The blunt way of saying this is that if you want to build some muscle you (most of time!) have to train to build muscle. A couple runs each week won’t ruin that, but S&S and some goblet squats probably won’t get you what you want. Also, like @watchnerd said, muscle is probably a lot harder to gain that you might be thinking. So if increasing muscle mass is a goal, I would focus on that. Swings and getups are nice, but hypertrophy training (imo) they are not. You may see a little if you are a relative novice at training, but beyond that….

If you have some lingering health issues, you want to lose fat, and you want to gain muscle, I think it might be best to keep things as simple as you can. A couple easy, tolerable runs per week, some strength/hypertrophy training a couple times a week, and some mobility/flexibility stuff sprinkled in. Match diet to that as others have already outlined.

Hope it helps and happy training.

Great post!

 

[Xcal]

Your question could generate a rabbit/black hole, ...

https://fitbod.me/blog/muscle-gain-in-a-month/

That is a great site, a rabbit-hole indeed!

Swings and getups are nice, but hypertrophy training (imo) they are not

Yes, I'm getting this from many posts in this thread. I am going to continue running, swings + squats for a few weeks until I'm fully happy with the 24kg => work on C+J and/or snatches with 24kg, then relook at my plan.

 

[watchnerd]

That is a great site, a rabbit-hole indeed!

Yes, I'm getting this from many posts in this thread. I am going to continue running, swings + squats for a few weeks until I'm fully happy with the 24kg => work on C+J and/or snatches with 24kg, then relook at my plan.

Okay, but why?

If you know they're not very good for hypertrophy and hypertrophy is your stated goal?

Yes, I'm admittedly being challenging in an attempt to drive clarity of purpose.

Devil's advocacy, as it were.

 

[Xcal]

@watchnerd I appreciate your tough questions! It does help me clarify my purpose.

so. I still have a higher-goal of dominating a 32kg KB and beyond. I think/believe/hope that any activity that takes me from my starting (12kg last Jan) through to the 32kg will build muscle (definitely build strength). S&S is a good plan to safely stepup weights.

I still need to investigate the KB hypertrophy programs, and would prefer to safely attempt these with a 24kg KB. I'll probably start working on this, it's bookmarked in my browser for many months

The Best All-Around Training Method EVER | StrongFirst

This method, while it does not maximize the development of any of the above qualities—only a highly specialized method, not a general physical preparation one, could do that—it develops them to levels high enough to successfully compete in amateur sports, excel at physically demanding...

www.strongfirst.com

 

[North Coast Miller]

@watchnerd I appreciate your tough questions! It does help me clarify my purpose.

so. I still have a higher-goal of dominating a 32kg KB and beyond. I think/believe/hope that any activity that takes me from my starting (12kg last Jan) through to the 32kg will build muscle (definitely build strength). S&S is a good plan to safely stepup weights.

I still need to investigate the KB hypertrophy programs, and would prefer to safely attempt these with a 24kg KB. I'll probably start working on this, it's bookmarked in my browser for many months

The Best All-Around Training Method EVER | StrongFirst

This method, while it does not maximize the development of any of the above qualities—only a highly specialized method, not a general physical preparation one, could do that—it develops them to levels high enough to successfully compete in amateur sports, excel at physically demanding...

www.strongfirst.com

Something to keep in mind, that too is a very generalized program intended for generalized results, not far off of what you are currently doing from an adaptive response POV.

While I like the idea of combining training to make it more compact and accessible, I have been finding that keeping my “cardio” cardio, and my strength/hypertrophy training actually strength and hypertrophy focused, I get better results.