Why? These two exercises will do nothing for any of your goals.
Fat loss and Muscle gain (not versus)
- Thread starter Xcal
- Start date
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
I give up....
It's a waste of time to offer tips and advice if there is no focus.
Xcal
Level 5 Valued Member
@renegadenate and @watchnerd
I really do appreciate your input. It has helped me in my accumulation of knowledge. I"m the kind of person who likes to see the forest instead of a single tree. e.g. I was pointed to the 'heavy squat 2023 challenge' (look at that tree) and I saw an interesting discussion about the Hindu Squat and Pushup (aah, I like that family of squirrels in the tree). And I''m always doing other tricks with my 16kg KB e.g. windmill, snatches, C+P, lunges, etc. and will transition these to the 24kg once I can rack it. I'm still too scared to try. I remember my first attempts snatching the 12kg
it was 30min KB walk, I was confident I was good with the suitcase&rack&waiters carries, I read all the snatch theory, and I went for it: strong hand Snatch-> Bang, stronger hand Snatch-> Bang. stop snatch and just continue walking! I was snatching well enough 2or3 weeks later, with sore forearms.
so, I'm still swinging the 24kg for most of this month and will surely consider all input before I start my next ~8week program.
This is my progress over the past month or 2:
- I'm very comfortable with 20 sets of 5 reps every 45 seconds (with a 90s rest after 10 sets)
- I'm very comfortable with 10x10 without a timer...11or13 minutes without issues
- today I went with sets of 12reps every 90s. YOH! that was tough. TOUGH. I ended up doing 12 sets...the last 2 were 10reps as my form started breaking down at rep 8or9. I'm thrilled to go over 110 today.
I know how much more difficult +2 reps can be, but it still shocked me!
And more stuff in my forest, I finally setup my Rings and do a few pull-up attempts every morning and evening.
just thinking: my career and academics are also all over the place it definitely slowed down my career progress as I changed career ladders quite often. But now, I bring a large package of skills to my company, customers, and colleagues. just like I expect to have a large set of fitness markers when I'm 70 (in 21 years)...well. I hope to live to 70! 21 years is a long time from now.
I really do appreciate your input. It has helped me in my accumulation of knowledge. I"m the kind of person who likes to see the forest instead of a single tree. e.g. I was pointed to the 'heavy squat 2023 challenge' (look at that tree) and I saw an interesting discussion about the Hindu Squat and Pushup (aah, I like that family of squirrels in the tree). And I''m always doing other tricks with my 16kg KB e.g. windmill, snatches, C+P, lunges, etc. and will transition these to the 24kg once I can rack it. I'm still too scared to try. I remember my first attempts snatching the 12kg
it was 30min KB walk, I was confident I was good with the suitcase&rack&waiters carries, I read all the snatch theory, and I went for it: strong hand Snatch-> Bang, stronger hand Snatch-> Bang. stop snatch and just continue walking! I was snatching well enough 2or3 weeks later, with sore forearms.so, I'm still swinging the 24kg for most of this month and will surely consider all input before I start my next ~8week program.
This is my progress over the past month or 2:
- I'm very comfortable with 20 sets of 5 reps every 45 seconds (with a 90s rest after 10 sets)
- I'm very comfortable with 10x10 without a timer...11or13 minutes without issues
- today I went with sets of 12reps every 90s. YOH! that was tough. TOUGH. I ended up doing 12 sets...the last 2 were 10reps as my form started breaking down at rep 8or9. I'm thrilled to go over 110 today.
I know how much more difficult +2 reps can be, but it still shocked me!
And more stuff in my forest, I finally setup my Rings and do a few pull-up attempts every morning and evening.
just thinking: my career and academics are also all over the place
it definitely slowed down my career progress as I changed career ladders quite often. But now, I bring a large package of skills to my company, customers, and colleagues. just like I expect to have a large set of fitness markers when I'm 70 (in 21 years)...well. I hope to live to 70! 21 years is a long time from now.Xcal
Level 5 Valued Member
I just read @Geoff Neupert newest mail. this episode is talking directly to me It covers these topics:
- get strong (is it wrong to associate this with more muscle?)
- lose fat
- Snatch, but be weary until you are ready
- different KB tricks
- twitch 2a and 2b muscle fibres
- impact on diabetes 2
It covers these topics:- get strong (is it wrong to associate this with more muscle?)
- lose fat
- Snatch, but be weary until you are ready
- different KB tricks
- twitch 2a and 2b muscle fibres
- impact on diabetes 2
Xcal
Level 5 Valued Member
LOL< and now this from STrongerByScience in my mailbox today:
hmmm. this doesn't sound like a lot, but it will compound over time. HJowever, It shouldn't take much time to lose 5kg fat, 2 to 4 comfortable months. From our conversation, adding muscle over the same period will be 2-4 pounds increase, leading to only a marginal increase in this short term.
yah team. I think that my conclusion after all this discussion is: lose fat and get strong in the short term. the muscle will grow when it wants to grow, and when I feed it correctly.
I trust all of this content which drove my conclusion:
1. This conversation thread
2. the best all round training method
3. Geoff Neupert's mail this morning
4. StrongerByScience and this evenings mail
5. fat loss = calories out > calories in (generally the good calories)
=> remember, the whole quest was to find a great way to reduce fat (5-8kg) as quick as possible. so any mission to build big muscle, or get stronger should work, along with good cardio runs. underlined by diet.
What do you make of this?
How Many Additional Calories Does Each Pound Of Muscle Burn?
" we can estimate that each pound of muscle you gain will increase your total energy expenditure by about 9-10 calories per day in total."hmmm. this doesn't sound like a lot, but it will compound over time. HJowever, It shouldn't take much time to lose 5kg fat, 2 to 4 comfortable months. From our conversation, adding muscle over the same period will be 2-4 pounds increase, leading to only a marginal increase in this short term.
yah team. I think that my conclusion after all this discussion is: lose fat and get strong in the short term. the muscle will grow when it wants to grow, and when I feed it correctly.
I trust all of this content which drove my conclusion:
1. This conversation thread
2. the best all round training method
3. Geoff Neupert's mail this morning
4. StrongerByScience and this evenings mail
5. fat loss = calories out > calories in (generally the good calories)
=> remember, the whole quest was to find a great way to reduce fat (5-8kg) as quick as possible. so any mission to build big muscle, or get stronger should work, along with good cardio runs. underlined by diet.
What do you make of this?
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
IDK about the resting expenditure of muscle vs fat.
My own estimate at about 195lbs 5'10", about 300 calories per day attributable to exercise. This is the rough cost of a routine 3-4 day per week program.
Doing only isometrics was comparable to not training - about 300 cals per day.
The rough efficiency of ATP turnover with isotonic contraction is about 50%, that is half of all ATP spent on muscle contraction is lost as heat.
My own estimate at about 195lbs 5'10", about 300 calories per day attributable to exercise. This is the rough cost of a routine 3-4 day per week program.
Doing only isometrics was comparable to not training - about 300 cals per day.
The rough efficiency of ATP turnover with isotonic contraction is about 50%, that is half of all ATP spent on muscle contraction is lost as heat.
the hansenator
Level 6 Valued Member
It looks like there's more going on than just how many calories are burned.
Lifting Weights? Your Fat Cells Would Like to Have a Word.
Lifting Weights? Your Fat Cells Would Like to Have a Word.
GovernorSilver
Level 6 Valued Member
I don't know who works for Stronger By Science, what their background is, etc.
At least I know who Geoff Neupert is and his programs seem to work as advertised for me.
At least I know who Geoff Neupert is and his programs seem to work as advertised for me.
Xcal
Level 5 Valued Member
this is my calory report for June. My long slow sunday runs burn 900+ calories in +- 90 minutes. the short hard runs burn around 400 (45 min or so including a slow warmup walk) and the Kettlebell (mostly warmup+swings+tricks with lighter KB) burn around 300 (30 min). I train 4-5 days/week, rarely 3or6 d/week. so to lose fat quickly, the focus is to just be active for as long as possible (and diet!). It doesn't really seem to matter what the action is.
the article is blocked. looks like I read my quota of free articles from the NY Times. Maybe it's similar to this one?
Why Resistance Training Has an Effect on Fat Loss
Basically this article says taht resistence training causes the muscles to send a signal to the fat cells telling them to start the fat-burning process.
so new questions
I love this!- the messages to fat-cells derive from resistence training.
Does more muscle mean that more messages are sent in the 30minutes of training?
How many more messages per extra pound of muscle?
Does more messages mean that more fat gets burnt?
I'm thinking of that Harry Potter 1 scene where the house gets flooded with letters. what works better: 1 letter or 1000 letters?
anyway, just want to repeat this current view of mine:
"so to lose fat quickly, the focus is to just be active for as long as possible (and diet!). It doesn't really seem to matter what the action is"
This is a bold and raw final sentence in the statement! I will not defend it or back it up, but I will try and execute it until I lose this 5-8kg
Bkb
Level 6 Valued Member
very interesting take. I especially like the fancy rep schemes with waved loading comment. I’m not sure why we rarely talk about straight sets on SF. I for one hadnT used straight sets in over two years. A couple months ago I started doing 4 straight sets of squats, presses, push ups, and rows… all were taken to close to failure. I noticed after just 3 weeks, I looked better and added some muscle. For reasons I don’t understand now that I think about it, I switched back to the fancy rep schemes and waved loading…. Lol.
offwidth
Level 10 Valued Member
It’s pretty hard to out run a doughnut…this is my calory report for June. My long slow sunday runs burn 900+ calories in +- 90 minutes. the short hard runs burn around 400 (45 min or so including a slow warmup walk) and the Kettlebell (mostly warmup+swings+tricks with lighter KB) burn around 300 (30 min). I train 4-5 days/week, rarely 3or6 d/week. so to lose fat quickly, the focus is to just be active for as long as possible (and diet!). It doesn't really seem to matter what the action is.
View attachment 21705
the article is blocked. looks like I read my quota of free articles from the NY Times. Maybe it's similar to this one?
Why Resistance Training Has an Effect on Fat Loss
Basically this article says taht resistence training causes the muscles to send a signal to the fat cells telling them to start the fat-burning process.
so new questions
- the messages to fat-cells derive from resistence training.
Does more muscle mean that more messages are sent in the 30minutes of training?
How many more messages per extra pound of muscle?
Does more messages mean that more fat gets burnt?
I'm thinking of that Harry Potter 1 scene where the house gets flooded with letters. what works better: 1 letter or 1000 letters?
anyway, just want to repeat this current view of mine:
"so to lose fat quickly, the focus is to just be active for as long as possible (and diet!). It doesn't really seem to matter what the action is"
This is a bold and raw final sentence in the statement! I will not defend it or back it up, but I will try and execute it until I lose this 5-8kg
solarbear
Level 6 Valued Member
I've done it lots of times. Simply, I stick to a few key lifts and eat in 2000-2500 calories a day, usually fasting till lunch. I also try to be more active and walk.
The simple meter I use is that my body weight goes down and my lifts go up or stay steady. You don't want to lose too quickly, a 1/2kg per week is plenty.
I know lots of things will work and will work differently for lots of people but things that have worked for me in the past
-Relatively brief full body workouts - Bench, Squat, Row - 3x3 and 3x8 with reduced rest - or Ascending sets varying the rep scheme
-Using different implements - if you normally use KB use a barbell or visa vera - using a specialty bar you've never tried - doing nothing but unilateral training or nothing but dumbbells - switching to bodyweight - completing a Chin Up, Swing or Push Up Program... the whole point is quite simply exciting your body by throwing a familiar but different stimulus at it. My body responds quite well holding onto muscle and building new when there is a new stimulus to overcome.
The simple meter I use is that my body weight goes down and my lifts go up or stay steady. You don't want to lose too quickly, a 1/2kg per week is plenty.
I know lots of things will work and will work differently for lots of people but things that have worked for me in the past
-Relatively brief full body workouts - Bench, Squat, Row - 3x3 and 3x8 with reduced rest - or Ascending sets varying the rep scheme
-Using different implements - if you normally use KB use a barbell or visa vera - using a specialty bar you've never tried - doing nothing but unilateral training or nothing but dumbbells - switching to bodyweight - completing a Chin Up, Swing or Push Up Program... the whole point is quite simply exciting your body by throwing a familiar but different stimulus at it. My body responds quite well holding onto muscle and building new when there is a new stimulus to overcome.
solarbear
Level 6 Valued Member
I dunno. I could imagine getting pretty jacked just doing Clean & Front Squat on one day and Clean & Press on another - using Barbell, KB or Dumbbell. I guess that is 3 movements.
OTOH I did build quite a bit of muscle in my teens just bench pressing and playing sport every day.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
Yep, that's 3.
You can get pretty big on 3 moves:
squat, bench, dead
front squat, push press, snatch grip DL
But 2 leaves out a lot.
Bkb
Level 6 Valued Member
Sounds like “Muscle Confusion” a la Tony Horton
Gypsyplumber
Level 7 Valued Member
You can definitely build muscle and burn fat. You don’t have to do easy strength necessarily, but Dan John’s method works very well for both. Strength training first then go for a 15-30 minute walk.
bluejeff
Level 7 Valued Member
I think it's natural to be attracted to fancy-sounded stuff. I also think the waving and "fancy rep schemes" tend to benefit folks with more training experience under their belt. That is, they are already "significantly" strong and conditioned. While it's true that newbies make gains on "pretty much anything," show me someone who can do double-digit (10+)sets of pullups, sets of 20+ pushups, etc who doesn't have some strength, muscle and conditioning. That's why they call GPP what it is. You start by getting "generally strong and conditioned." That, I believe, is the rationale behind programs like S&S. It's not a complex program. It's intentionally simple so you can easily stick to it. While it might not fit someone's particular goals, that doesn't decrease the value it does have.
It doesn't make sense to me to try and get "specifically strong" if you can't do basic things like pushups and pullups, etc. We say "be strong first" around here after all. So I wouldn't be worried about fancy training plans and perfectly dialed-in macros until you can actually stick to one plan long enough to make progress. I forget what book it's in, but I believe Pavel wrote something along the lines of "if you have to ask if you are strong yet, you aren't."
So the last thing I will say, AGAIN, to our friend @Xcal here is "stick to a plan." People who spend a lot of time training and making little progress almost always lack focus. I can speak from experience (in multiple areas). Unsubscribe from emails and get off social media and whatnot if it distracts you with "shiny other training methods."
solarbear
Level 6 Valued Member
Maybe. I looked up the term to see exactly what it means and all I can say is it is close to what I think happens but not exactly: the definition suggests you'd change your exercises all the time. I like to commit to a lift for a while so that you can see the progress, which is the main difference.
To Quote the NY times article on MC, "That idea has some appeal and many proponents but little independent scientific backing."
Pavel said some Soviet trainers used Variable Loading, which was using some planned, but seemingly chaotic, reps and rep ranges. So perhaps there is some merit to part of the idea.
I just think that committing to Front Squats (while you have always done Back Squats) for say a 6 week diet may trigger your nervous system. It won't want to lose the muscle because it now has a new stimulant it has to survive and you will get some of the newbie CNS gains by doing the different exercise. At least that seems to be my current experience... I recently switched from back squats to safety bar squats and that one change seemed to wake up something. Or when I initially started the diet about 8 weeks ago I switched from KB to barbells and again something woke up and I was making some nice gains while losing weight.
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