Fat loss and Muscle gain (not versus)

[silveraw]

My fitness journey would have been so much simpler if I could get jacked from just a 2 move minimalist program!

I spent two years doing just the 2 lift programs. People were surprised to find out I lifted.

 

[North Coast Miller]

@Xcal

Not scientific, but as good a formula as I've found:
"
Free Fat Mass (FFM) = total fat mass (TFM) - essential fat mass (EFM)
TFM = Body Weight * Fat%
EFM = (Lean Body Mass [LBM])*0.03 for men or (Lean Body Mass)*0.12 for women
LBM = Body Weight - TFM

Maximum Daily Fat Mobilization = 2.5grams*FFM
Maximum Daily Deficit (MDD) = 2.5grams*FFM*9calories/gram

This is the largest deficit that you can maintain per day and theoretically have all of the deficit be supplied by fat oxidation.

So, let's say you're a 30 year old woman, 5'5'' tall and 180 lbs with 40% body fat. Your total daily energy expenditure is about 2200 calories (lightly active).
BW = 180 lbs
LBM = 180 - 180*.4 = 108 lbs
TFM = 180*.4 = 72 lbs
EFM = 108*.12 = 13 lbs
FFM = 59 lbs
MDD = 59 lbs * 2.5g/lb * 9 cal/g = 1327 calories per day"

A good amount of lean muscle gain would be 1lb per month. A reasonable amount would be 1/2-3/4lb per month along with some recomp.
My personally biased best case would be about 2lbs per month lean, anything more than that one should consider writing a book on the topic.

 

[Washed up Meathead.]

Body recomposition is possible where you can lose fat and gain muscle but it's not easy and you have to me meticulous with your diet and training, especially Diet.

Last year I rejoined a gym after having been away from training in the gym for 2 years(I still trained but didn't eat well and drank too much) and with the COVID lockdowns I really let myself go and gained load of weight.

When I rejoined a gym from may to October, in 5 months I went from 183lbs/82.5kg down to 158lbs/72kg. I gained muscle along the way. So it's doable to gain muscle while losing fat but not easy.

 

[Xcal]

2 sections: calory/diet then training
Calory/diet
Body Weight = 88.5kg.
FFM = total fat mass (TFM) - essential fat mass (EFM) = I'm going to assume 6Kg of extra fat. simply because I remember my best fighting weight from 12 years ago. The following numbers are based on this assumption
LBM = Body Weight - TFM = 82.5kg
TFM = Body Weight * Fat% = 88.5kg *
EFM = (Lean Body Mass [LBM])*0.03 for men = 2.5kg
Maximum Daily Fat Mobilization = 2.5grams*FFM = 15grams

Maximum Daily Deficit (MDD) = 2.5grams*FFM*9calories/gram = about 340calories. (kcal is the same as cal? eish!!!)

My Polar watch tells me that I spend over 4000Kcal a day on active days (4or5/week) and 3000-3500Kcal (1or2/week) on rest days. now I need to track my food. hmmm. I'll try all I tracked in the past 2 monhts is that I do my best to eat less than I did in the previous 6 months AND eat more protein. The easiest reduction has been stopping those take-aways and late night snacks. I still have a few drinks per week and a small-binge drink with friends every 2 weeks. It's more like I watch my friends drink a lot and I drink a little...this is related to my constant heartburn from meds/autoimmune/etc than weight-loss. I'd be happy to give up more bread/pasta/rice if I could stomach a few more beers/whiskey

Training
LOL, i'm devastated to learn that S&S is not the muscle builder...it has been a strength builder for me. ok, my plan is redirected:
1. I will continue the running plan to get back to a weekly easy 2.5 long run (some walk) which I was fairly comfortable with until October '22
2. I will continue S&S 10x10 1h swings (24kg) for a few more weeks (2or3 per week) until I'm 100% comfortable with swinging it to chest height...shouldn't be too long from now.
3. I will restart snatches and C+J with the 16kg this week. few sets with few reps, mabye a GTG effort or something, just to get the motions dialled in again.
4. The S&S v2 approach to move up KB weight is awesome. I will apply this idea to snatches and C+J with 24kg after I'm 100% happy with step 2.
5. I continue to work on my ankle mobility + KB lunges + KB squats. will spend more effort on Front Squats as recommended.

thanks to ALL for the really great inputs.

 

[ShawnM]

My fitness journey would have been so much simpler if I could get jacked from just a 2 move minimalist program!

As far as how you compete in weightlifting, I would think a solid program of just full C&P and full snatches would add a decent amount of muscle. I gained a ton of size with just presses and deadlifts three days a week with reps in the 3-5 range. But I will admit that I have near zero experience with the snatch and clean & press.

 

[watchnerd]

As far as how you compete in weightlifting, I would think a solid program of just full C&P and full snatches would add a decent amount of muscle. I gained a ton of size with just presses and deadlifts three days a week with reps in the 3-5 range. But I will admit that I have near zero experience with the snatch and clean & press.

Not really.

Weightlifters often do separate hypertrophy blocks and/or accessory work that uses lots of grinds because focusing on the competition ballistics alone is so poor at adding muscle.

Front squats, back squats, clean pulls, snatch pulls, RDLs, good mornings, push presses, ab / back work, etc.

Even minimalist WL programs will have about 2 grinds per training session, i.e. snatch, snatch pull, squat

Plus whatever upper body accessory work fits their training methodology.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Weightlifters often do separate hypertrophy blocks and/or accessory work that uses lots of grinds because focusing on the competition ballistics alone is so poor at adding muscle.

In this context, this needs to be understood more commonly.

 

[watchnerd]

In this context, this needs to be understood more commonly.

I think people commonly get confused because untrained / detrained individuals / newbies can do almost anything and add some mass.

 

[ShawnM]

Not really.

Weightlifters often do separate hypertrophy blocks and/or accessory work that uses lots of grinds because focusing on the competition ballistics alone is so poor at adding muscle.

Front squats, back squats, clean pulls, snatch pulls, RDLs, good mornings, push presses, ab / back work, etc.

Even minimalist WL programs will have about 2 grinds per training session, i.e. snatch, snatch pull, squat

Plus whatever upper body accessory work fits their training methodology.

Thanks for the info, I appreciate it.

 

[Anna C]

Weightlifters often do separate hypertrophy blocks and/or accessory work that uses lots of grinds because focusing on the competition ballistics alone is so poor at adding muscle.

Front squats, back squats, clean pulls, snatch pulls, RDLs, good mornings, push presses, ab / back work, etc.

Even minimalist WL programs will have about 2 grinds per training session, i.e. snatch, snatch pull, squat

Plus whatever upper body accessory work fits their training methodology.

Yep, sounds like my programming for the past 3 years.

 

[jdoe]

had to increase my protein intake to 180-200 grams per day

How do you get that amount of protein??

 

[renegadenate]

How do you get that amount of protein??

Protein shakes are your friend.

I'll eat three meals with 30-50 grams of protein and use whey protein shakes to get whatever I need to hit my goal.

 

[Xcal]

I think people commonly get confused because untrained / detrained individuals / newbies can do almost anything and add some mass.

I suspect that this is where I am regarding my last few weeks:
1. I moved from 16 to 24kg bell, coming from a detrained position in March. (0 activity in Jan/Feb, then mostly used 12kg + slow jogs in March and jumped straight into a 9 week running program in April and S&S with 16+24kg a few week laters. I can now swing 10x10 1H with 24kg a few times/week)
2. I improved my eating habbits in march (slowly eased into the new modus over a couple of week)

My weight stayed the same from April to now despite increased training sessions, time per session, and intensity per session. Hence my questions. Judging from my past, I will either start rapidly lose weight soon (proving my suspicion) or stay on this plateu (indicating that I must change something, and I'm already changing direction as my last post)

 

[watchnerd]

How do you get that amount of protein??

Orally is my preference.

 

[jdoe]

Orally is my preference.

I mean 200g of protein its a lot. I rarely have more than 100g and have to eat meat to reach that amount. So im interested what other people eat to get more protein

 

[watchnerd]

I suspect that this is where I am regarding my last few weeks:
1. I moved from 16 to 24kg bell, coming from a detrained position in March. (0 activity in Jan/Feb, then mostly used 12kg + slow jogs in March and jumped straight into a 9 week running program in April and S&S with 16+24kg a few week laters. I can now swing 10x10 1H with 24kg a few times/week)
2. I improved my eating habbits in march (slowly eased into the new modus over a couple of week)

My weight stayed the same from April to now despite increased training sessions, time per session, and intensity per session. Hence my questions. Judging from my past, I will either start rapidly lose weight soon (proving my suspicion) or stay on this plateu (indicating that I must change something, and I'm already changing direction as my last post)

Ramping up intensity and time per session wouldn't be what I would focus on if I was trying to do hypertrophy.

Volume of hard sets should increase over a hypertrophy cycle, but there increased time per workout is a by-product of increased volume and not the target per se.

Also, intense endurance running training is really hard to mix with hypertrophy without sending conflicting adaptive signals (i.e. do I add tissue to get stronger, or do I pare tissue down to get more efficient at running?). Light-moderate running doesn't seem to have the same challenge.

 

[renegadenate]

I mean 200g of protein its a lot. I rarely have more than 100g and have to eat meat to reach that amount. So im interested what other people eat to get more protein

That's awfully low for a male!

Ideally, you want .8 - 1 gram per pound of lean or goal body-weight.

I eat 3-4 eggs with cheese for breakfast to get 30-40 grams.

I eat 8 ounces of meat and veggies for lunch and dinner for 40-50 grams of protein.

Whey protein shakes (2 scoops) get me another 50-60 grams.

At the very least, I get about 150 grams of protein per day (still more than body-weight).

 

[watchnerd]

I mean 200g of protein its a lot. I rarely have more than 100g and have to eat meat to reach that amount. So im interested what other people eat to get more protein

I eat 160 g - 240 g, depending where I am in my macrocycle.

I get it from milk, collagen powder, bone broth, kefir, beans, pig skins, protein powder, eggs, cheese, meat, nuts, and fish.

Some trace amounts in whole grains.

You don't need to get it all from meat.

 

[Don Fairbanks]

I mean 200g of protein its a lot. I rarely have more than 100g and have to eat meat to reach that amount. So im interested what other people eat to get more protein

Meat organs milk , cheese from various animals, eggs, shellfish , gelatin powder, various amino acid powders.

 

[BJJ Shawn]

In addition to meat and whey shakes, I get a fair amount from cottage cheese and greek yogurt, both of which are high in protein and if you have a hard time eating enough they are very easy to add to your diet. Both are actually fairly low in lactose, with cottage cheese being the winner in that department, and they are easily digestable by most people.

"Cottage Cheese:
The interesting thing about cottage cheese is that the process it goes through to become cottage cheese results in there being “almost” no lactose present at all. This explains why mysteriously some lactose-intolerant folks can happily eat cottage cheese without a problem.

Greek Yogurt:
Greek yogurt supplies less than 6.8 grams of lactose (the milk sugar) per 6-ounce serving, compared to cottage cheese at 3 grams of lactose per half cup.

They’re both rich in lean protein, with cottage cheese having slightly more; 27 grams per cup cottage cheese versus 20 grams per cup for greek yogurt, and only 12 grams for plain yogurt."