Kettlebell Goblet squat WTH effect!

[User 7569]

Steve Maxwell was, but is no longer, a Senior instructor - he was part of our old company's program but left a few years before StrongFirst was created.

Soreness means you're sore. You can be sore for a variety of reasons, including having "found" some muscles or a movement pattern that's new to you, and if those muscles or that movement pattern is/are something you value, then it's been a useful indicator.

At StrongFirst, we teach the goblet squat to help pattern the squat. It's a warmup exercise with a twist - if you're weak in some areas, it will help strengthen them. Loading it - to half bodyweight or to anything past a moderate weight, will be more challenging to things other than the legs for most people, and for most people, one of the main reasons to squat is to build strength and size in the legs. "One of", not "the only," please. I think it's best to think of a heavy goblet squat as a test, but not as a way to train regularly.

I confess to not seeing the point in all these comparisons. Goblet squats can serve as a movement screen, they can serve as warmup, they can serve as a strength exercise that is different in its training effect than a barbell back squat. Let's remember that strength can be achieved by a variety of means, and that we all want to own a variety of movement patterns, but that we all don't need to load every movement pattern heavily. Choose what to do and what to load based on an assessment of your movement patterns and the needs of your chosen sport, if you have one.

JMO.

-S-

Any tips for doing goblet squats with an adjustable dumbbell? I have 3 standard dumbbell bars and 65 pounds worth of standard plates, but no KB.

Part of my misses the goblet squat, haven't really done it since my KB's left.

 

[Papa Georgio]

I agree with most everyone here that the goblet squat takes a lot more effort for a given weight because of the upper body recruitment. Back squats, especially the low bar version, more effectively loads the squat pattern for maximum effect on the legs.

Having said that, I'm about to junk all of my back squatting and deadlifting to switch to single leg versions to reduce spinal loading and save my lower back.

 

[jef]

On this, I am with @Bill Been
The goblet squat is a good exercise. I almost always use it when I teach the squat (any squat). We start with unloaded squat, then we go to goblet squat, then to barbell squat.
But if the goal is strength, it is not in the same ballpark as a barbell squat.

I have done prying goblet squats between sets of barbell squats. I never squatted really heavy, but there was still no comparison between my then 100-120kg BB squats and the easy 24kg goblet squats.

As a mobility exercise, it is very good, although I prefer the cossack squats.

 

[Anna C]

As a mobility exercise, it is very good, although I prefer the cossack squats.

Me too! I said the same on Instagram... I'll see if I can add the link here.

Anna Cannington on Instagram: “Nothing makes my 50 yr old hip joints feel as good as the Cossack squat.”

 

[Anna C]

Having said that, I'm about to junk all of my back squatting and deadlifting to switch to single leg versions to reduce spinal loading and save my lower back.

Deadlifting and back squatting should make your lower back stronger and better off if your technique is good. Any idea what's causing you problems?

 

[jef]

Me too! I said the same on Instagram... I'll see if I can add the link here.

Anna Cannington on Instagram: “Nothing makes my 50 yr old hip joints feel as good as the Cossack squat.”

Nice cossack squats. I like this version (litterally ATG), and this is how I do it with a KB.

Goblet squat for prying/opening the hips, cossack squat for mobility/loaded stretching, barbell squat for strength.

 

[Papa Georgio]

Deadlifting and back squatting should make your lower back stronger and better off if your technique is good. Any idea what's causing you problems?

I have existing lower back issues from crashing cars long time ago. I'm a stickler when if comes to warm ups and proper form. Last week I tweeked my back on a "light" warm up set on back squat. Pain shot down my spine as soon as I unracked the weight. I either came of the rack with the wrong pelvic tilt and/or I unknowingly tweeked it doing clean & presses right before. (but I never felt anything on the C&P)
I would think that my lower back should be strong with as much hinging work that I do. My lower back seems to have zero tolerance to any rounding, even at light loads.

 

[Anna C]

I have existing lower back issues from crashing cars long time ago. I'm a stickler when if comes to warm ups and proper form. Last week I tweeked my back on a "light" warm up set on back squat. Pain shot down my spine as soon as I unracked the weight. I either came of the rack with the wrong pelvic tilt and/or I unknowingly tweeked it doing clean & presses right before. (but I never felt anything on the C&P)
I would think that my lower back should be strong with as much hinging work that I do. My lower back seems to have zero tolerance to any rounding, even at light loads.

OK. If it's something you'd like to be able to continue doing, myself and others would be happy to take a look at a video for a form check.

 

[Papa Georgio]

OK. If it's something you'd like to be able to continue doing, myself and others would be happy to take a look at a video for a form check.

Thanks Anna. I feel 95% back, but I'gonna wait another week to get back it. Then I'll shoot you a video.

 

[User 7569]

I have existing lower back issues from crashing cars long time ago. I'm a stickler when if comes to warm ups and proper form. Last week I tweeked my back on a "light" warm up set on back squat. Pain shot down my spine as soon as I unracked the weight. I either came of the rack with the wrong pelvic tilt and/or I unknowingly tweeked it doing clean & presses right before. (but I never felt anything on the C&P)
I would think that my lower back should be strong with as much hinging work that I do. My lower back seems to have zero tolerance to any rounding, even at light loads.

honestly, switching over from barbell squats and deadlifts to exercises that don't load the spine as much was a blessing for me.

I never got honest training to show me the big lifts (bench, sq, dl) so my form was likely pretty trash and I had no concept of tension generation. My mobility, flexibility, and cardiovascular (recovery) systems were also severely lacking when I was doing barbell work.

What I'm trying to say is that the barbell lifts are great, but they have a higher cost for poor form compared to most single leg squat exercises (pistols, shrimps, lego squats, SLDL). Doesn't mean that you shouldn't learn them from a good instructor like the ones here at SF. Getting people like Anna to watch your videos might seriously help you out. Getting an SF instructor in person would really probably solve a lot of the problems you are having with the exercises, because they are perfectly good and safe exercises when done properly.

The bodyweight squatting movements (the single-leg ones you are interested in) were a lot easier for me to learn to do and not harm myself. I'm tempted to say I've never been harmed by single leg squatting, I can't remember a time, and I've trained it pretty frequently for the past year.. the SLDL you do have to be a little more careful with, when loading it.

My strength shot up very quickly because I could recover from my workouts better and I no longer really feel "taxed" CNS wise, even after a relatively "long" pistol session. There is just no comparison to having a barbell with plates on it loaded onto your back, good and bad.

SO single leg squatting is much different than barbell squatting, and the goblet squat is in a category of it's own.

The goblet squat is strength through mobility. Some people really get a lot out of it. In many ways it is all you need, but I would focus less on the carry over it can give you ( to back squatting for instance) and more on the health benefits.

Pistols do put stress on your lower back. Be careful because it is subtle.

 

[Bret S.]

honestly, switching over from barbell squats and deadlifts to exercises that don't load the spine as much was a blessing for me.

me too

 

[Papa Georgio]

honestly, switching over from barbell squats and deadlifts to exercises that don't load the spine as much was a blessing for me.

Thanks Jak,
I guess I was speaking out of frustration. I probably won't abandon barbell work totally, but I think I think 1-legged versions would benefit me much like you've noted. I've avoided it because 1)takes twice as long to work out, and 2) It's harder, it takes balance and coordination. I just need to suck it up and do it.

 

[Antti]

I don't mean to once again just praise the back squat instead of the bodyweight or kettlebell movements, but I feel I have to say that the barbell exercises have been such a blessing on my back. I suffered from back aches for 15-20 years and after about a year of lifting with the barbell the aches are mostly gone. My experience with kettlebell training didn't really help the issues. But of course, we all have our individual ailments that have to be considered on a case to case basis.

 

[Matt604]

Pistols do put stress on your lower back. Be careful because it is subtle.

Can you elaborate? I have just in the past couple days noticed some discomfort and a "loose" feeling in my lower back and the only thing I can attribute it to is starting pistols again. I have always thought of them as back-friendly but maybe that is not quite right. Certainly there is no compression (I am doing them unweighted) but maybe shear forces? Lateral shear from the offset stance?

 

[User 7569]

Can you elaborate? I have just in the past couple days noticed some discomfort and a "loose" feeling in my lower back and the only thing I can attribute it to is starting pistols again. I have always thought of them as back-friendly but maybe that is not quite right. Certainly there is no compression (I am doing them unweighted) but maybe shear forces? Lateral shear from the offset stance?

I'm not sure about the mechanism or why it works the lower back, I just know from my personal experience that it absolutely works the low back. My guess would be that the "forward lean" you do (almost like a good morning) during pistols works out the back in some way. I know that pistols weighted down with a KB do absolutely work the back, though the reasons for that are more obvious

 

[fractal]

The pistol does a few things uniquely with the back. It loads the psoas and other hip flexors on the non working leg quite strongly, while putting a very strong posterior rotation force through the pelvis on the working side. A great movement, but there's enough going on with it that it'll definitely make you aware of any dysfunction in your lower back and hips.

 

[guardian7]

@guardian7 I've been doing it as S&S warm up, so it is low volume and light weight, with focus on mobility.

Daily practice has worked great for me for many things: mobility, consistency, fat loss and it feels great. The one important thing it hasn't improved much is hypertrophy. Having trained consistently for 2 years, I would appreciate having grown some more muscle. But then again, the program is not aimed for that goal. The overall balance is very very positive though.

Is there any reason why you are going to go light? I personally prefer going for heavier goblet squats mixed with bodyweight only squats. The heavier GS really sink you down between your legs, and also put a lot of weight forward to work on ankle dorsiflexion. And the bodyweight only squats, staying at the bottom, teach you how to tense and relax yourself to hold a comfortable bottom position, after having forced the mobility with the heavy weight.

I meant to say light volume. Basically, I am wondering about everyday 3 * 5 type goblet squats vs three times a week with more volume on each of those days.

 

[guardian7]

Any tips for doing goblet squats with an adjustable dumbbell? I have 3 standard dumbbell bars and 65 pounds worth of standard plates, but no KB.

Part of my misses the goblet squat, haven't really done it since my KB's left.

Load the top plate wider/heavier than the bottom plats.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Steve Maxwell says even doing the goblet squat with a light weight is equal to doing a barbell back-squat with triple the weight because of the tension on the upper back.

Misinformation

As other have posted, a Goblet Squat does not equate "A barbell back-squat with triple the weight..." Maxwell has nothing to support that premise because it is incorrect. In plain English, he made it up.

Credibility Issue

Once someone starts making thing up as they go, you it hard to believe what they say.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

Misinformation

As other have posted, a Goblet Squat does not equate "A barbell back-squat with triple the weight..." Maxwell has nothing to support that premise because it is incorrect. In plain English, he made it up.

Kenny Croxdale

In defence of Mr. Maxwell, that statement is more a subjective observation rather than an outright fabrication: A goblet squat may feel similar in terms of perceived exertion to a back squat with triple the weight, but that's no indicator of parity in terms of either training effect or calculating an appropriate training load for either exercise, nor do I think that's what he was trying to say.