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Kettlebell Goblet squat WTH effect!

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Chrisdavisjr said:
In defence of Mr. Maxwell, that statement is more a subjective observation rather than an outright fabrication: A goblet squat may feel similar in terms of perceived exertion to a back squat with triple the weight, but that's no indicator of parity in terms of either training effect or calculating an appropriate training load for either exercise, nor do I think that's what he was trying to say.
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Maxwell's Statement

No matter how you spin this, Maxwell's statement is incorrect.

"What he was trying to say..."

You post some good information. I realize you are trying to give him the benefit of doubt.

However, a connotation that starts of with "I think" means that someone is guessing and really have no idea.

All we have is Maxwell's definitive statement that clearly states that a goblet squat equates to a barbell squat that is three times that amount.

The relevant question is. "What information is there to substantiate that statement"?

My post simply reinforce the other two post on the misinformation in Maxwell's video.

Kenny Croxdale
 
guardian7 said:
I meant to say light volume. Basically, I am wondering about everyday 3 * 5 type goblet squats vs three times a week with more volume on each of those days.
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I think it depends on goals. In your case, from your original post, it appears you want to get to 1/2 bodyweight x 20 reps. If that is the case, maybe you can put together specific programming to achieve it, and maybe 3 times per week would work better than 3*5 everyday.

About the mobility benefits of the goblet squats, I´m no instructor, but I think you cant beat daily practice a la S&S.

@Anna C and @jef I´ve been wondering about doing cossack squats as my S&S warm up a few days a week. I was thinking on doing goblet cossacks or front rack cossacks with a light KB. Even overhead might be an alternative. Any suggestion on how to do it?
 
Chrisdavisjr said:
In defence of Mr. Maxwell, that statement is more a subjective observation rather than an outright fabrication: A goblet squat may feel similar in terms of perceived exertion to a back squat with triple the weight, but that's no indicator of parity in terms of either training effect or calculating an appropriate training load for either exercise, nor do I think that's what he was trying to say.
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Front squat mechanics compared to backsquat do produce some serious changes in torque, the Goblet squat will actually accentuate this difference as the load is even further from the center of gravity than it is with a front squat. I know doing Zercher is harder with sand than it is with a barbell, as are front squats with a sandbag. Imagine doing Goblet squat with an Atlas ball.

Torque at the knee FS to BS is over 50% higher. With a goblet squat the knee moment arm will be even longer.

But torque at the hip and lumbar is much less with FS than BS, nearly 25%, with higher compressive forces to start.

So yes, the 3x number is an embellishment or maybe there is a true source not mentioned - it is possible depending on how bulky the load is, at least in some respects. Normally Maxwell is quoting from actual research when he whips out statements like that...

The Real Science of the Squat
 
My back does not like back squats, too many years of construction work.. perfect technique matters not to my lower back, the discs are thinner on the posterior side and leave me very vulnerable to hyper-extension.
I believe the goblet squats with a load of at least 32k tend to help balance out or offset the torque forces on the lumbar discs. How do I know this? I can do goblet squats without issue when properly loaded, too light a load and my lower back becomes irritated.
 
Oscar said:
@Anna C and @jef I´ve been wondering about doing cossack squats as my S&S warm up a few days a week. I was thinking on doing goblet cossacks or front rack cossacks with a light KB. Even overhead might be an alternative. Any suggestion on how to do it?
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Whatever warms up your leg muscles and mobilizes your hips for the work to follow. You probably know best by now! Unless you're using goblets or Cossack squats for some other strength-building purpose, it's really all about those two objectives, and whatever gets you there is a winner, IMO.
 
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@Oscar
As @Anna C said, if it mobilizes your hips, it is a good alternative.
Personally, I still prefer prying goblet squats before exercise. I use cossack as a strength-flexibility exercise, so it is a bit different than your goal.
 
Anna C said:
Whatever warms up your leg muscles and mobilizes your hips for the work to follow. You probably know best by now! Unless you're using goblets or Cossack squats for some other strength-building purpose, it's really all about those two objectives, and whatever gets you there is a winner, IMO.
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I can do an ATG deep goblet squat, hang out in the prying position, and sit in the "Asian squat" for a couple of minutes but I can't properly cossack squat. I need a supporting arm and can't get in a deep position. I can't do a pistol either. Any ideas anyone why, apart from the fact that I don't do cossack squats enough? In terms of hip extension(?) I can do a middle kick in martial arts but not a head kick.
 
guardian7 said:
I can do an ATG deep goblet squat, hang out in the prying position, and sit in the "Asian squat" for a couple of minutes but I can't properly cossack squat. I need a supporting arm and can't get in a deep position. I can't do a pistol either. Any ideas anyone why, apart from the fact that I don't do cossack squats enough? In terms of hip extension(?) I can do a middle kick in martial arts but not a head kick.
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I would look into Relax Into Stretch and Flexible Steel. That and just continue with the Cossack Squats.

Can you hold the lower position of the Cossack unsupported?
 
guardian7 said:
I can do an ATG deep goblet squat, hang out in the prying position, and sit in the "Asian squat" for a couple of minutes but I can't properly cossack squat. I need a supporting arm and can't get in a deep position. I can't do a pistol either. Any ideas anyone why, apart from the fact that I don't do cossack squats enough?
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They're pretty challenging movements for most people -- even strong and/or mobile people. Hard to say for you without seeing some of your squats, but it could be a lack of tension, lack of relaxation, or both. Confusing, right? Attendance of the StrongFirst bodyweight course will clear that right up... :)

Karen Smith has a this quick tutorial on Cossack squat. Here's another good one on working towards a Pistol.
 
guardian7 said:
I can do an ATG deep goblet squat, hang out in the prying position, and sit in the "Asian squat" for a couple of minutes but I can't properly cossack squat. I need a supporting arm and can't get in a deep position. I can't do a pistol either. Any ideas anyone why, apart from the fact that I don't do cossack squats enough? In terms of hip extension(?) I can do a middle kick in martial arts but not a head kick.
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I'd say more practice and work on groin stretching. This will allow your hips to open up enough for higher kicks and definitely help with Cossack squats. In fact I'd say just use Cossacks as part of your routine stretching/mobility and work on getting deeper on the exhale, you'll be able to do them with resistance soon enough.

I normally keep my straight leg foot pointed forward instead of toes to the sky as commonly done, and I prefer to cant my bent leg foot to the side instead of forward. A good bit of hinge is also needed to get low.

I will occasionally rotate upper torso from facing over my bent leg to pointing as far to the straight leg as mobility will allow.

For stretching I plant the hand over my bent leg, about 18 inches out, and dig my elbow into the crook of my knee. Then slowly lean forward onto the balls of both feet, turning it into a prying Cossack squat. This is one of my daily stretches.

 
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North Coast Miller said:
I normally keep my straight leg foot pointed forward instead of toes to the sky as commonly done, and I prefer to cant my bent leg foot to the side instead of forward. A good bit of hinge is also needed to get low.
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I've wondered about that, I've seen it demoed both ways and was never sure if there's a reason that one method is better? They feel different.
 
the hansenator said:
I've wondered about that, I've seen it demoed both ways and was never sure if there's a reason that one method is better? They feel different.
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You get more hamstring stretch on the extended leg with the toes up, more groin stretch with toes forward. I use it way more to open the hips and use other stretches to hit the hammies.
 
North Coast Miller said:
You get more hamstring stretch on the extended leg with the toes up, more groin stretch with toes forward. I use it way more to open the hips and use other stretches to hit the hammies.
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It feels different to me on the non-extended leg too, almost like there's more internal rotation or something.
 
the hansenator said:
It feels different to me on the non-extended leg too, almost like there's more internal rotation or something.
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Forces me back more on the heel. When I do these with a sandbag over my shoulders I can't balance the load with the extended leg toes up. Have to hold the load in front more like a pistol.
 
guardian7 said:
I can do an ATG deep goblet squat, hang out in the prying position, and sit in the "Asian squat" for a couple of minutes but I can't properly cossack squat. I need a supporting arm and can't get in a deep position. I can't do a pistol either. Any ideas anyone why, apart from the fact that I don't do cossack squats enough? In terms of hip extension(?) I can do a middle kick in martial arts but not a head kick.
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I would look at a) groin mobility b) external rotation of the hip and c) hip flexor strength.

Relax into Stretch is a great resource for point (a) and the recent SF podcast with Kelly Starrett covers external rotation (b). Basically, do some unilateral work (for example single leg deadifts, balancing moves, bird dogs) that force you to stabilize the hip to maintain balance. And straight legged dead bugs might help with point (c) and strenghten your hip flexors.
 
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