Other/Mixed How far can complexes take you in terms of strength and muscle mass?

[Vulcan300]

Hello all,

For the past month or so I have been performing complexes as my only form of strength training. I do it three times a week. It involves the following:

2 rounds of sandbag:

Push ups (5 reps)
Zercher deadlifts (5 reps)
Zercher squat (10 reps)
Bearhug squats (10 reps)
Clean and press (5 reps)

2-3 minute rest

2 rounds of kettlebell:

Clean and press (5 reps each side)
Goblet squat (10 reps)
Swings (10 reps)
Bent over row (5 reps each side)
Push up (5 reps)

2-3 minute rest

2 rounds of shovelglove (Shovelglove: The Sledgehammer Workout)

Initially it was exhausting, though I'm gradually acclimating to the workout. I feel stronger, particularly in my shoulders, forearms, and lower body. I like complexes because they let me keep my workout short as I struggle to adhere to longer routines. In addition to this routine, I do burpees and jump rope twice a week for cardio, leaving two rest days every week.

Could I gain a decent amount of strength/muscle with this routine if I keep on adding weight to my sandbag/kettlebell/sledgehammer? I've been scouring the internet on complexes and I've read some contradictory information on its usefulness for mass/strength. Is there anyway I can better optimize this routine for what I want?

Thank you

 

[sizzlefuzz]

2 rounds of shovelglove (Shovelglove: The Sledgehammer Workout)

I'm going to give this a try tomorrow... Very interesting.

Re: complexes, I am very new to the "game" but I understand what you are saying. I think they are a great tool in the 80/20 "Pareto principle" standpoint.

The books that have a lot of stuff around complexes like MKM and Kettlebell Hard are also very clear that if you want to pack on mass and strength you have to be eating. So the question is, are you eating a lot in addition to this? Speaking from my own (albeit limited) experience so far with @Geoff Neupert's programs, I have been keeping my eating in check and leaning out by using things like STRONG or his complexes. I assume if I were eating at a large surplus, there would be gains, but I could also see some diminishing marginal returns to the complex approach based around the weight you are able to move.

Looking at your two complexes (assuming you are using the same weight for all sandbag/kettlebell movements) even with the lower reps the clean and press and the bent over rows would probably be where you would hit your limiter as compared to the other leg/hip/back dominant movements.

I don't think you'll be winning Mr. Olympia, but I think it's a great method to be "in shape" compared to the vast majority.

Side note, I just did a little reddit deep dive on shovelglove and people are CRAZY for it. Going to try it out with an 8lb sledge tomorrow before breakfast.

 

[Vulcan300]

I'm going to give this a try tomorrow... Very interesting.

Re: complexes, I am very new to the "game" but I understand what you are saying. I think they are a great tool in the 80/20 "Pareto principle" standpoint.

The books that have a lot of stuff around complexes like MKM and Kettlebell Hard are also very clear that if you want to pack on mass and strength you have to be eating. So the question is, are you eating a lot in addition to this? Speaking from my own (albeit limited) experience so far with @Geoff Neupert's programs, I have been keeping my eating in check and leaning out by using things like STRONG or his complexes. I assume if I were eating at a large surplus, there would be gains, but I could also see some diminishing marginal returns to the complex approach based around the weight you are able to move.

Looking at your two complexes (assuming you are using the same weight for all sandbag/kettlebell movements) even with the lower reps the clean and press and the bent over rows would probably be where you would hit your limiter as compared to the other leg/hip/back dominant movements.

I don't think you'll be winning Mr. Olympia, but I think it's a great method to be "in shape" compared to the vast majority.

Side note, I just did a little reddit deep dive on shovelglove and people are CRAZY for it. Going to try it out with an 8lb sledge tomorrow before breakfast.

I highly recommend shovelglove! I do most of the movements detailed on the website, in addition to hindu squats and 360's and 10-2's (feels great on the shoulders: ). I only wish I had found out about shovelglove sooner, as a great deal of the hype for it died some years back. Even the forum dedicated to it has little activity.

Okay, that's good to know. I'm actually striving to lose weight right now so I am on a caloric deficit, but it's nice to know that if I tweak my diet once I'm at my target weight, I can gain muscle.

And yes, I do use the same weight for my complexes.

 

[sizzlefuzz]

I highly recommend shovelglove! I do most of the movements detailed on the website, in addition to hindu squats and 360's and 10-2's (feels great on the shoulders: ). I only wish I had found out about shovelglove sooner, as a great deal of the hype for it died some years back. Even the forum dedicated to it has little activity.

Okay, that's good to know. I'm actually striving to lose weight right now so I am on a caloric deficit, but it's nice to know that if I tweak my diet once I'm at my target weight, I can gain muscle.

And yes, I do use the same weight for my complexes.

I played around with the "canonical" movements a bit with an 8 & 10lb sledgehammer after my session. Nothing serious. Going to work it into my routine going forward.

 

[Vulcan300]

I played around with the "canonical" movements a bit with an 8 & 10lb sledgehammer after my session. Nothing serious. Going to work it into my routine going forward.

With the "Hoist the Sack" movement, I recommend using both hands rather than one. Gave me elbow pain when I used just one.

 

[sizzlefuzz]

Two more questions, when you do 2 rounds, do you do 2-14 minute rounds, or just 2 times through? / Do you do the 7-rep routine or the "suggested reps" through? I played around with the movements after my session today and I liked it.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

I used double bell complexes as my main training and simply practiced other skills when I had to recert the last time..

short answer: you can use complexes to lay the groundwork for most goals then add the specifics as necessary

 

[Vulcan300]

Two more questions, when you do 2 rounds, do you do 2-14 minute rounds, or just 2 times through? / Do you do the 7-rep routine or the "suggested reps" through? I played around with the movements after my session today and I liked it.

I don't time it out to equal 14 minute rounds. I just do one round of 6 reps of each movement on both my left and right side wait 2-3 minutes and then do another round of the same. I imagine it takes less than 14 minutes to get through it like that. Initially I did 8 reps each side but that wore me out faster when I was first starting to exercise so I lowered it to 6 reps and did much better.

 

[Starlord]

That depends entirely how strong you are to begin with. The stronger you are, the less effective complexes will be.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

That depends entirely how strong you are to begin with. The stronger you are, the less effective complexes will be.

Or let's look at it this way...

The stronger you are, the more you are able to use bigger bells for complexes...

Imagine running plans in Kettlebell hard with 28s

 

[Starlord]

Or let's look at it this way...

The stronger you are, the more you are able to use bigger bells for complexes...

Imagine running plans in Kettlebell hard with 28s

But there is only so big and strong you can get with bells. So this then links back to my first statement.

If hypertrophy is the name of the game then the barbell is king.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

But there is only so big and strong you can get with bells. So this then links back to my first statement.

If hypertrophy is the name of the game then the barbell is king.

The TS was asking if it's possible . The answer is yes.

Now if you are aiming for maximal hypertrophy as a result of being able to use much higher total load then of course there are other more optimal approaches .

The focus of complexes is on the volume and density.. the barbell uses absolute load..

Apples to oranges

 

[Starlord]

The TS was asking if it's possible . The answer is yes.

Now if you are aiming for maximal hypertrophy as a result of being able to use much higher total load then of course there are other more optimal approaches .

The focus of complexes is on the volume and density.. the barbell uses absolute load..

Apples to oranges

That's why my original comment was depending how strong the OP is. As he alluded that detail I cannot give better advice than that.

 

[Vulcan300]

That's why my original comment was depending how strong the OP is. As he alluded that detail I cannot give better advice than that.

I wouldn't say I'm particularly strong. Haven't been exercising for even a year honestly.

 

[Starlord]

I wouldn't say I'm particularly strong. Haven't been exercising for even a year honestly.

Then KB complexes have plenty of scope to increase your size and strength.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

I wouldn't say I'm particularly strong. Haven't been exercising for even a year honestly.

For context:

How heavy is the sandbag you'll be using?
How about the Kettlebell/s?

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Could I gain a decent amount of strength/muscle with this routine if I keep on adding weight to my sandbag/kettlebell/sledgehammer?

Some Gains

Yes, you will make some gains in strength, not much with hypertroph.

The program you are performing is a...

Metabolic Training

The program you are performing is essentially falls into the same category as...

1) High Intensity Resistance Training Program, HIRT

It essentially High Intensity Interval Sprint Training, only with resistance/weight

2) Circuit Resistance Training

Performing a circuit of resistance training with no pause between exercise.

These approaches are good for conditioning and increasing your post metabolic rate. Your metaolic rate is elevated for hour after training; Excess Post Oxygen Consumption (EPOC).

Some increase in strength occurs.

However, this training approach is more effective at decreasing body fat/body mass than increasing muscle mass/hypertrophy.

I've been scouring the internet on complexes and I've read some contradictory information on its usefulness for mass/strength.

Using The Right Tool

Complexes is a great training method. It will provide some increases in strength.

To reiterate, Complex fall more into Metabolic Training; more effective for decreasing body fat/body mass.

Complex are questionalbe for increasing muscle mass/hypertrophy.

Complex for increasing strength and hypertrophy amount to using a crescent wrench to hammer a nail instead of a hammer; which is designed spefically for the task.

Is there anyway I can better optimize this routine for what I want?

Not Really

it is like asking if there a way to make a crescent wrench into a better hammer.

 

[sizzlefuzz]

Or let's look at it this way...

The stronger you are, the more you are able to use bigger bells for complexes...

Imagine running plans in Kettlebell hard with 28s

Totally, though then the limiting factor with something like double bells becomes shoulders/grip as opposed to the trunk and lower body. The ability to progress with the barbell if you are squatting, pressing, and to a lesser degree deadlifting* will allow you to stack things on more efficiently.

*I don't think deadlifting is ideal for hypertrophy, but still great for overall strength.

Obviously, now with the explosion of home training, not everyone has a power rack at home (myself included) so you have to work around limitations of the equipment you have available. If I were starting from 0 and had a goal for hypertrophy (while also wanting to be strong) -- I think something like Starting Strength or 5/3/1 would be the way to go while eating a lot.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

Totally, though then the limiting factor with something like double bells becomes shoulders/grip as opposed to the trunk and lower body. The ability to progress with the barbell if you are squatting, pressing, and to a lesser degree deadlifting* will allow you to stack things on more efficiently.

*I don't think deadlifting is ideal for hypertrophy, but still great for overall strength.

Obviously, now with the explosion of home training, not everyone has a power rack at home (myself included) so you have to work around limitations of the equipment you have available. If I were starting from 0 and had a goal for hypertrophy (while also wanting to be strong) -- I think something like Starting Strength or 5/3/1 would be the way to go while eating a lot.

Yes for someone looking to put on a lot of muscle, I would definitely recommend having some sort of barbell training..

And yes, with the pandemic and explosion of home gyms (which is great) not everyone has access to a rack and barbell so I still recommend a hybrid approach for that situation (i.e. I go to a gym 1-2x a week to touch a barbell)

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

now with the explosion of home training,

Home Fitness Training Wanes

Americans are heading back to gyms as interest in at-home workouts wanes, Jefferies says

As Covid restrictions ease across the country, more people are heading back to the gym, new research shows.

www.cnbc.com

• As Covid restrictions ease across the country, more people are heading back to the gym, new research shows.
• As of last month, traffic at gyms nationwide was back to 83% of January 2020 levels, and down just 6% from the same period in 2019, Jefferies found.
• Interest in at-home fitness equipment peaked in April 2020, Jefferies said, and has since decelerated to hit an all-time pandemic low.

As per the article, Home Fitness Training is decreasing. More individual are going back to gym to train.

Thus, Home Fitness Equipment Sales are not what they were. Most likely, individuals who purchase Home Fitness will be selling it on Craiglist.

Want a good buy on Fitness Equipment, start checking Craiglist.

Peloton

Covid increase Peloton Home Training Business and Sales.

Peloton thought it would continue. It did not.

Peloton ended up manufacturing more fitness equipment that they now cannot sell because individuals are going back to the gym

Peloton Interactive (Peloton) recently announced that it will be letting go roughly 2,800 of its worldwide positions. This layoff will include about 20% of Peloton’s corporate workforce. Source: Peloton Interactive’s 2,800 Worker Layoff And The WARN Act

If I were starting from 0 and had a goal for hypertrophy (while also wanting to be strong) -- I think something like Starting Strength or 5/3/1 would be the way to go while eating a lot.

Hypertrophy Training

1) Eating A Lot

Increasing calorie intake above maintenance level intake is definitely a key component.

However, eating a lot is a vague term with no meaning.

The majority of individual don't know how many calories they are consuming. This is fundamental to in knowing how many more calorie need to be consumed to gain weight.

2) Starting Strength

It is more of a Maximum Strength Training Program than a Hypertrophy Training Program.

While some Hypertrophy gains may occur; Starting Strength isn't the right tool for the job.