Kettlebell Is simple and sinister all you need?

[jayjo]

I think the point of S&S was to make a workout that most people can do and that will hit most muscles/joints. So I would say it CAN be all one needs. But if your someone like me who enjoys variety....My current weekly workout program is like this:
--Simple & Sinister
--Clean & Press
--Snatch
--Floor Press and Curls (this is my beach muscle workout)
But if I take time out because I'm doing a lot of job labor or due to an injury, then the first workout I begin with is S&S cause it gets me back in general shape.

 

[Ege]

What is PTTP

Power to the people.

A program from Pavel T with two barbell moves. Deadlift and Press.

From a novice perspective, I can say, what S&S is for KBs, PTTP is for Barbells, by nature it is to increase strength. It is not a GPP program.

Then you have Naked Warrior, a pistol and a push up w BW.

one or all of them might be enough for some one or not )) based on the spirit of this thread.

 

[Ege]

There are a some elements of minimalism in the context of intermediate to advanced trainees that I don't see discussed very often that may be worth exploring (although these don't have much to do with S&S, specifically):

They are:

• mTOR pathways need to be re-sensitized after periods of high volume and intensity, with de-load periods needed to drive further adaptation
• At higher levels of development and training volume, large muscle groups (glutes, legs, back) can end up siphoning off a huge portion of the body's net recovery capacity and nutrient partitioning, leaving less for others
• If an area needs more focus, and the organism is already operating at maximum adaptive volume, something has to come off the training plate to free up time and adaptive resources

For this reason, at the end of a typical post-comp 12 week hypertrophy block, I'll do a "focus block" for 8 weeks as a 2nd phase block in the overall 20 week hypertrophy mesocycle where I pick a lift that I want to work on more or has been lagging (probably the press this time around), and everything else will go into "maintenance mode".

This will mean I will intentionally do the absolute minimum necessary work in one area (e.g. squats, pulls), in order to put more training time and recovery resources into another (e.g. presses).

Thanks for this explanation.

 

[Ege]

Sure. ‍

Plus:

• Pull-ups
• Pushups
• 1-Arm Press variations (& Doubles)
• Deadlifts
• Goblet Squats & Double Kettlebell Front Squats
• Carries
• And a variety of other stuff (crawling, med ball, sandbag, battle ropes, etc.)!

And it can all be accomplished with 20-30 minute full-body sessions.

Would you try to progress in all, or would you pick a few to progress faster? (I am not trying provocate or try to make point, I truely want to understand your view to learn)

Best

 

[Ege]

I want to state one fact about S&S that is not relevant to most people in this forum.

Please don’t shoot me but a clearly stated quite challenging for a novice but also doable goal of “Simple” also creates a “hook” for novices.

This might sound stupid, because many experienced people in this forum is trying to better them selves, which is the right attitude.

But I have to admit that for someone like me, this goal of “Simple” is very catchy. don’t kill me for this, it provokes the teenager still alive in me

 

[Ryan T]

So after 4 pages of rigorous pontification and knowledge sharing, the answer is simply “no.”

 

[watchnerd]

So after 4 pages of rigorous pontification and knowledge sharing, the answer is simply “no.”

Additionally, my anecdotal experience is that once I was past the skill acquisition phase of ‘learning kettlebells’, I progressed faster in S&S by not doing it exclusively than I did when I was.

 

[renegadenate]

Would you try to progress in all, or would you pick a few to progress faster? (I am not trying provocate or try to make point, I truely want to understand your view to learn)

Best

You can progress in multiple areas at once (at least, that is my experience for myself and my coaching clients).

For example, when I was using S&S along with other training (and it included a lot of variety/exercises), I saw improvements in pretty much everything.

However, you don't have to progress in everything at the same time. Let them naturally go up in whatever time/fashion they do so.

When I first implemented S&S, I started with a 24kg kettlebell for two-arm swings and get-ups. After nearly four months, I was using 40kg for two-arm swings and 28kg for one-arm swings (and could do all 100 one-arm swings in 5 minutes with 24kg) and my Get-ups were up to 36kg. This was at a SHREDDED body-weight of 128lbs (I'm only 5'4" with very, very small joints/limbs and short muscle bellies/long tendons).

At the same time, I increased strength and/or reps in dozens of other exercises from bodyweight to kettlebell to dumbbell, etc. This included pull-ups, dumbbell floor presses, overhead presses (singe and double kettlebell), Goblet Squats/DKFS, and others. And even though I wasn't performing them, my barbell 1RM Deadlift went up.

My training has essentially been 20-30 minute full-body workouts 3x/week since 2008/2009 and whatever else I may or may not do on the "off" days (i.e. S&S, Q&D, Murph Training, TSC training, etc.).

Right now, I'm performing three full-body workouts (45 minutes/session with warm-up) and two Q&D sessions (on the "off" days).

I have also used a concurrent training program for myself and my coaching clients for the last 13 years. Some may argue that concurrent training isn't good because of the interference effect, but I have not experienced that as an issue. I think that's only an issue for high-level athletes and those performing a good amount of cardio.

And by concurrent training, I don't mean resistance training and cardio (I rarely perform "cardio"). I mean that during a week of full-body workouts, they may look like this:

Mon: Strength
Wed: Power/HIRT
Fri: Hypertrophy

Or some variation of that including:

Mon: Metabolic Conditioning
Wed: Strength
Fri: Hypertrophy

And 90% of the time, I'm using circuits (EMOM, timed, etc.). Many on this forum will say you can't get stronger, build muscle, blah, blah, blah with circuits, and I'll be the first to tell you that's BS! For a good reference, see Chad Waterbury's new book: Elite Physique.

It has taken science/research more than a decade to finally prove that what some of us have been doing all this time is highly effective for about 90-95% of the population.

 

[Ege]

So after 4 pages of rigorous pontification and knowledge sharing, the answer is simply “no.”

For me this thread was very valuable to learn experienced people’s views and possibilities after or beyond S&S.

But in my own reality I will go back to my dove for hip hinges )) probably I am not the best person to state his views… the man who exercises with a dove )

 

[Ege]

You can progress in multiple areas at once (at least, that is my experience for myself and my coaching clients).

For example, when I was using S&S along with other training (and it included a lot of variety/exercises), I saw improvements in pretty much everything.

However, you don't have to progress in everything at the same time. Let them naturally go up in whatever time/fashion they do so.

When I first implemented S&S, I started with a 24kg kettlebell for two-arm swings and get-ups. After nearly four months, I was using 40kg for two-arm swings and 28kg for one-arm swings (and could do all 100 one-arm swings in 5 minutes with 24kg) and my Get-ups were up to 36kg. This was at a SHREDDED body-weight of 128lbs (I'm only 5'4" with very, very small joints/limbs and short muscle bellies/long tendons).

At the same time, I increased strength and/or reps in dozens of other exercises from bodyweight to kettlebell to dumbbell, etc. This included pull-ups, dumbbell floor presses, overhead presses (singe and double kettlebell), Goblet Squats/DKFS, and others. And even though I wasn't performing them, my barbell 1RM Deadlift went up.

My training has essentially been 20-30 minute full-body workouts 3x/week since 2008/2009 and whatever else I may or may not do on the "off" days (i.e. S&S, Q&D, Murph Training, TSC training, etc.).

Right now, I'm performing three full-body workouts (45 minutes/session with warm-up) and two Q&D sessions (on the "off" days).

I have also used a concurrent training program for myself and my coaching clients for the last 13 years. Some may argue that concurrent training isn't good because of the interference effect, but I have not experienced that as an issue. I think that's only an issue for high-level athletes and those performing a good amount of cardio.

And by concurrent training, I don't mean resistance training and cardio (I rarely perform "cardio"). I mean that during a week of full-body workouts, they may look like this:

Mon: Strength
Wed: Power/HIRT
Fri: Hypertrophy

Or some variation of that including:

Mon: Metabolic Conditioning
Wed: Strength
Fri: Hypertrophy

And 90% of the time, I'm using circuits (EMOM, timed, etc.). Many on this forum will say you can't get stronger, build muscle, blah, blah, blah with circuits, and I'll be the first to tell you that's BS! For a good reference, see Chad Waterbury's new book: Elite Physique.

It has taken science/research more than a decade to finally prove that what some of us have been doing all this time is highly effective for about 90-95% of the population.

Thanks a lot!

 

[Ege]

When I first implemented S&S, I started with a 24kg kettlebell for two-arm swings and get-ups. After nearly four months, I was using 40kg for two-arm swings and 28kg for one-arm swings (and could do all 100 one-arm swings in 5 minutes with 24kg) and my Get-ups were up to 36kg. This was at a SHREDDED body-weight of 128lbs (I'm only 5'4" with very, very small joints/limbs and short muscle bellies/long tendons).

GU w more than 60% of your BW! Numbers speak themselves…

 

[watchnerd]

You can progress in multiple areas at once (at least, that is my experience for myself and my coaching clients).

For example, when I was using S&S along with other training (and it included a lot of variety/exercises), I saw improvements in pretty much everything.

However, you don't have to progress in everything at the same time. Let them naturally go up in whatever time/fashion they do so.

When I first implemented S&S, I started with a 24kg kettlebell for two-arm swings and get-ups. After nearly four months, I was using 40kg for two-arm swings and 28kg for one-arm swings (and could do all 100 one-arm swings in 5 minutes with 24kg) and my Get-ups were up to 36kg. This was at a SHREDDED body-weight of 128lbs (I'm only 5'4" with very, very small joints/limbs and short muscle bellies/long tendons).

At the same time, I increased strength and/or reps in dozens of other exercises from bodyweight to kettlebell to dumbbell, etc. This included pull-ups, dumbbell floor presses, overhead presses (singe and double kettlebell), Goblet Squats/DKFS, and others. And even though I wasn't performing them, my barbell 1RM Deadlift went up.

My training has essentially been 20-30 minute full-body workouts 3x/week since 2008/2009 and whatever else I may or may not do on the "off" days (i.e. S&S, Q&D, Murph Training, TSC training, etc.).

Right now, I'm performing three full-body workouts (45 minutes/session with warm-up) and two Q&D sessions (on the "off" days).

I have also used a concurrent training program for myself and my coaching clients for the last 13 years. Some may argue that concurrent training isn't good because of the interference effect, but I have not experienced that as an issue. I think that's only an issue for high-level athletes and those performing a good amount of cardio.

And by concurrent training, I don't mean resistance training and cardio (I rarely perform "cardio"). I mean that during a week of full-body workouts, they may look like this:

Mon: Strength
Wed: Power/HIRT
Fri: Hypertrophy

Or some variation of that including:

Mon: Metabolic Conditioning
Wed: Strength
Fri: Hypertrophy

And 90% of the time, I'm using circuits (EMOM, timed, etc.). Many on this forum will say you can't get stronger, build muscle, blah, blah, blah with circuits, and I'll be the first to tell you that's BS! For a good reference, see Chad Waterbury's new book: Elite Physique.

It has taken science/research more than a decade to finally prove that what some of us have been doing all this time is highly effective for about 90-95% of the population.

The only training benefit I’ve really had from circuits and complexes is looking better naked, having fun, and being able to do them semi naked in public spaces while working on my tan

 

[renegadenate]

GU w more than 60% of your BW! Numbers speak themselves…

Yeah, I was in total BEAST MODE!

And I was close to being able to do the 40kg for Get-ups.

Same with 1-Arm Overhead KB Presses. At the end of 2019 through April 2020, I was even leaner and lighter than I had previously been (I'm talking a dry fighting shredded weight at 5-6% body fat). At that time, a 28kg kettlebell was HALF my body-weight!

 

[renegadenate]

The only training benefit I’ve really had from circuits and complexes is looking better naked, having fun, and being able to do them semi naked in public spaces while working on my tan

Oh, for sure. From 2011 - 2020, that's what I did (looked good naked, had fun, worked on my tan, and walked around half naked all the time ), but I got a lot stronger too.

 

[watchnerd]

Oh, for sure. From 2011 - 2020, that's what I did (looked good naked, had fun, worked on my tan, and walked around half naked all the time ), but I got a lot stronger too.

Oh, and I can do them with minimal implements that I can fit next to a barbecue and so do sets between flipping the steak.

I rationalize such summer silliness in my training macro cycle by pretending they're building up my connective tissues and hormones for the beating to come later, but really it's just so I look better in a singlet.

 

[watchnerd]

At that time, a 28kg kettlebell was HALF my body-weight!

Dang, bro, I could've barbell curled you for reps. LOL.

 

[renegadenate]

Dang, bro, I could've barbell curled you for reps. LOL.

I'm light as a feather, hard as a rock!

 

[watchnerd]

I'm light as a feather, hard as a rock!

 

[Ryan T]

Additionally, my anecdotal experience is that once I was past the skill acquisition phase of ‘learning kettlebells’, I progressed faster in S&S by not doing it exclusively than I did when I was.

Indeed. I’ve actually had more than one coach say the best path toward “solid” and beyond isn’t necessarily swings and get ups. Build some barbell strength and groove the skills to keep them fresh. Cycle back to some more dedicated S&S after.

 

[Adachi]

​

Indeed. I’ve actually had more than one coach say the best path toward “solid” and beyond isn’t necessarily swings and get ups. Build some barbell strength and groove the skills to keep them fresh. Cycle back to some more dedicated S&S after.