all posts post new thread

Off-Topic Jason Fung Did Nothing Wrong

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)

John K

Level 7 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
sure. I would agree that one should be cautious with overextending what works for some and applying it to all.

this affords me another opportunity to clarify and bound the extent of my views.

Limitation of scope:
to zoom out and call back to @offwidth 's chart above, I believe that this implicit normal distribution exists outside of my useful paradigm.

I believe that I exist in the tail of this normal distribution curve. How Deeply into that tail is a question that I find to be entirely difficult to quantify.

I believe that there is a spectrum where some nutritional compositions have effects on their subject and at some varied rate of sensitivity, or magnitude. I believe we can all be found somewhere on this spectrum.

There are those, for whom, this hormone-driven paradigm, within which Jason Fung's works lives, is most applicable, and least applicable.

As I mentioned above, for my Female friends who were cross-fitters and were using my experience to try fasting and eating more carnivorously - I discouraged them from continuing when they were open with me about some of the complications they were experiencing. And they continue to do just fine for themselves, today, in maintaining their desired fitness levels, without fasting and restricting carbs to some low levels as I do.

I do believe that a slimly held majority of the population should absolutely feel free to disregard my explanations - insofar as a problem isn't a problem until it's a problem. I don't pay any mind to them eating however they like. I don't have any comments to offer someone who's succeeding. Instead, I'd like to listen and learn from them. hence my deference to anyone around me who was thinner and seemed in control of their weight. I asked for their advice, and they gave their answer.

As to the enervating force behind why I would launch such arguments:

In my view of the populace at large, and the amounts of the medical literature I've read though I actually regard this tail, in which I reside to be a rather fat tail. The area under the curve here seems to be a lot taller than a standard curve.

the percentage of the populace, of people who might be similarly situated to be - does not seem to me to be anything resembling an insignificant fraction of the population. One of whom is one of my oldest friends who is roughly a carnivore, and fasts from time to time, purposefully, around his body fat management and his very successful time under the barbell. during one deployment they had little to do other than lift weights, where he achieved > 300-400-500 on his lifts and was happy to have at one point measured his arm circumference to be greater than his head. And, now, he is a sergeant major in the JSOC in special forces and can keep up with the young troops in his unit, and looks better than some of them. he's a bit prideful of his girlish figure and he credits eating like this for helping him stay fit and trim in front of the troops.

And I do my best to limit the form of my arguments to that which I know best. my own evidence that I've seen in my own life and in those close to me, who upon seeing my success gave it a try, and in many cases got what they were looking for out of it.

And so when I see something that has worked for me, that I've seen work for others, in very deep and meaningful ways, which have lifelong positive outlooks, I am inclined to defend it in general; for all the reasons I've posited.

And most of all - I struggle with how far out of reach that book Protein Power was for me. how maligned Dr. Atkins' thesis was in the public eye. how not one - NOT ONE - person, until that one sergeant ( to whom I accidentally owe a great deal ) mentioned Protein Power. I feel similarly about the (Now understood to be simple time tested) basic information that StrongFirst purveys. Ultimately, the basic principles of how to actually build muscle and increase my strength (from pedestrian untrained levels) were gate-keep-ed away from me, by those who would intercede, who were louder and more present in the marketplaces for such information vis-a-vis-pop-fitness-publications. I am startled at how unlikely my encounter with these paradigms was, and how they lay beyond a thick fog designed to direct my attention to other things which turned out to be much less helpful.

that's why I launch such arguments. I hope to leave a trail of breadcrumbs behind me for those similarly situated. because what I hated most was the hopelessness I faced for so many years fueled by so many defeats and setbacks; which ultimately were sourced from all the well-meaning but incorrect advice that was so thickly prevalent everywhere I looked.
Maybe I am just not familiar enough with Fung's work to see the throughline. My understanding of his work is that fasting + his special green tea (with licorice and ginger) allows you to manipulate hormones so you can lose weight.

You are clearly an example of how fasting + protein focus allowed you to meet the goals you had (have). I guess someone like Fung (and perhaps yourself, but I don't want to speak for you) sees that as effectively manipulating hormones, and I see that as effectively reducing your calories.
 

Adachi

Level 6 Valued Member
That's why God made squat racks....
I don't doubt this one bit.
maybe my time will come.
For now, I'm looking forward to a cycle of Deadlifts and Floor Presses.
I'm working with what I got.
 
Last edited:

Hrungnir

Level 6 Valued Member
@Adachi why no pic from the front? I guess we know why lol

Even leaving BMI, which you don’t qualify as someone who is carrying too much lean mass to break the measurement, the other popular measurement is if your waist is half your height or less. Yours firmly isn’t. It seems my question where I didn’t understand how someone who hasn’t had success can talk like you did, is answered by you thinking you aren’t obese/have had success.
 

Adachi

Level 6 Valued Member
Maybe I am just not familiar enough with Fung's work to see the throughline. My understanding of his work is that fasting + his special green tea (with licorice and ginger) allows you to manipulate hormones so you can lose weight.

You are clearly an example of how fasting + protein focus allowed you to meet the goals you had (have). I guess someone like Fung (and perhaps yourself, but I don't want to speak for you) sees that as effectively manipulating hormones, and I see that as effectively reducing your calories.
My impression of Dr. Fung's work is that it is in accordance with the so-called LowCarb community (to use a crude label for brevity's sake) are not specifically antagonistic to the claim that "Calories in Calories out" as a physics statement.

the complaint about Calories in Calories out, which I see as going back easily to Atikins' work, and earlier to William Banting, seems to be that this has little or nothing to do with how one who is struggling should comport themselves.

the calories in calories out model is a fine ex post facto descriptor to use.
But, it is mistakenly employed, when used as an ex-ante prophylactic.

the throughline is the deference to the preeminence of the effects of hormones that is repeatedly mentioned in Fung's work and others' that the dominance of insulin - when outside of the range, is a preeminent effect, which drives higher calorie consumption, phenomenologically.

I guess my supposition is that it is probably the "manipulation" of the relevant hormone levels - which allows me to be in a state of nutrient energy-rich serum levels - which is the physical definition of satiety. My cells have such ready access to so much of what they want, that I haven't really been all that hungry for months or years at a time. And, insofar as I'm not as hungry, I can afford to be much more selective of what I eat, and I eat much less, overall.

a low point of food consumption for me:
in accordance with Jason Fung's advice, I wanted to lose as much fat as possible for a surprise(or an oops I forgot) weigh-in about 30 days out. So, for about 4 weeks, I fasted for 72 hours, had 1 meal, and fasted for another 72 hours. I ate once every few days. I had black coffee in the mornings with a sprinkle of salt, because the withdrawals are severe for me.

digression: I have quit caffeine cold turkey before for about 6 months, but that's a separate story, I was doubled over in pain for about 3 days.

I conducted the fast for the month. and yes I had fewer calories overall. at the time I was running a 5x5 pressing and front squat cycle inspired by Prometheus protocol. I was mixing in some water rowing. by the end of the 4 weeks, I could barely muster the will to do 10 reps 2x that last week and was doing some easy rowing more in the end to supplement. I used 32kg and 24kg alternating hands by the set. but, the eating between days was about 2 lbs. of beef every three days. I was drinking carbonated water to try to manipulate myself to be able to eat as large a meal as possible when I did eat. I believe I ended up dropping over 20 lbs. and my weigh-in was right around 200 lbs. off from my usual weight of 225. and my waist was in the low 30s. and I passed with flying colors.

but I was not at my most comfortable energy levels. I was really stretching what my body could do and in the 3rd and 4th weeks, I was falling asleep on the couch at 4-5 pm some days. one supposition I had was it might have to do with me not noticing any muscle size changes. insofar as I wasn't too catabolic to the muscle tissue, my body said I'm not unpacking this meat, so we're going to sleep, right now. but, all the while - I wasn't really hungry after the first couple of days.

I was glad to resume my daily meal while training, and feel higher ambient energy levels, and resume my progression toward pressing the beast.
 
Last edited:

Adachi

Level 6 Valued Member
@Adachi why no pic from the front? I guess we know why lol

Even leaving BMI, which you don’t qualify as someone who is carrying too much lean mass to break the measurement, the other popular measurement is if your waist is half your height or less. Yours firmly isn’t. It seems my question where I didn’t understand how someone who hasn’t had success can talk like you did, is answered by you thinking you aren’t obese/have had success.

waltergotme (1).gif

Go ahead. call me fat. I am. (y)

you've got a good gripe.
  • Physician, Heal Thyself.
  • if I don't look the part - maybe I ain't.
  • if it walks like a fat duck, talks like a fat duck...
I know what I am.
I know where I'm going.
I know where I came from.

if a picture is worth a thousand words, what's a series of videos shot from an unflattering angle worth?
Check me out
 
Last edited:

Don Fairbanks

SFG II
Certified Instructor
Thanks, @Adachi, for posting your results/experience.

I was just thinking about Dr. Fung earlier today.

Personally and professionally, CICO as it's currently presented, has some real holes in it, but here's some food for thought (no pun intended), and in no particular order that you and others may find helpful:
  • I have seen repeatedly over the last 20 years the need for "refeeds" - temporary increases in caloric consumption - to speed up stalled fat loss.
  • "Eat Less, Exercise More often backfires." Dr. John Berardi wrote about this concept about 15+ years ago and called it "G-Flux."
  • Super high carb diets, according to long-term studies, appear to be just as effective as Keto, for fat loss, thus negating CIM
  • Fasting can be detrimental if used by the wrong person at the wrong times
  • Protein Power is a great book - bought my copy around 20 or so years ago. I ALWAYS build my meals off protein first and have been doing so since '96. (Protein Power appeared to explain why I was experiencing what I was experiencing - probably a little confirmation bias thrown in for good measure too.)
  • Speaking of protein, there's a new(-ish) concept called "Protein Leverage" which you may find interesting. Here's more info: Protein leverage and energy intake - PubMed
  • Hormones DO matter. Drop a man's T levels through the floor and he'll dump muscle and pick up fat in record time
Finally, at the end of the day, calories DO actually matter. I too, often use the concentration camp victims as proof.

A less grisly proof point is Angus Barbieri, who fasted 382 days and went from 465lbs to 180lbs.

But as I tell my clients, "There's a lot that can happen between here and the end of the day."

So, keep on experimenting and refining what works for you.
Speaking of protein leverage, Nutrient Density leveraging, study by Ty Beal. You can find his charts online and he has a conversation about it on a Chris Kresser podcast.

 

watchnerd

Level 8 Valued Member
My cells have such ready access to so much of what they want, that I haven't really been all that hungry for months or years at a time. And, insofar as I'm not as hungry, I can afford to be much more selective of what I eat, and I eat much less, overall.

One of the reasons I train before dinner is to work up an appetite.

"working up an appetite" seems like a term my grandparents would have used a lot, but I rarely hear nowadays.
 

John K

Level 7 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
the complaint which I see as going back easily to Atikins' work, and earlier to William Banting, seems to be that this has little or nothing to do with how one who is struggling should comport themselves.
Agreed, which I think can be seen in the money analogy I used earlier. Telling someone to eat less isn't that helpful. It isn't that it is wrong - it just isn't helpful. I kinda go into this more below.
the throughline is the deference that is repeatedly mentioned in Fung's work and others' that the dominance of insulin - when outside of the range, is a preeminent effect, which drives higher calories, phenomenologically.

Fung pays the same deference to the description that Fatty Tissues will be very sensitive to Insulin levels and will hide away energy from the bloodstream into the fat stores. Accepting this as true- then he has his prescription about what actions should be taken.

this preeminence of hormonal state - is a through line that I recognize in Jason Fung's arguments.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. The Carbohydrate Insulin Model is not convincing to me, or to people deep in the nutrition world that I deeply respect, like Alan Aragon. When calories and protein are equated, it seems to be a wash. Same with the focus on hormones. I think this is where Fung loses credibility.

When you look at studies that equates calories and protein, there doesn't seem to be a difference between low fat/high carb and high fat/low carb groups.

When you look at studies that equates calories but has fasting vs. traditional eating pattern, you don't see a difference.

If CIM or hormone manipulation was the "best fit" model, you wouldn't predict either of these.

The deciding factor in both these cases is what is sustainable for the individual, not the "style" itself have a special effect. And this is where I go back to calories - if you can be comfortable and in a deficit following one of these approaches, it is more likely to be sustainable, you're more likely to be consistent, and you're more likely to see results. If you follow one of these approaches and routinely consume considerably more than you need, you'll gain weight.

the claim that a uniform numerical value of calories leads to indistinguishable results, without regard to the chemical composition of those calories, is something that I struggle with considering.
I'm sure folks say this, but I'm not in the reddits or whatever where people say 100 calories from broccoli or cookies is the same. To me, that is creating a strawman to argue against. We don't eat calories; we don't even eat macros. We eat foods. And those foods have a "context" that you cannot simply ignore. 100 calories of cookies and broccoli aren't the same, but that is less to do with the calories or even the insulin response and more to do with quantity - that's 11 OUNCES of steamed broccoli vs 2 chips ahoy cookies. I don't think I could eat that much broccoli; I think I wouldn't notice "accidentally" eating those cookies. And that's ignoring more complicated issues around snacking and "hedonic" engineering of foods.

One of the "problems" folks have when applying a CICO/IIFYM approach is picking less-filling foods to meet their macros. This puts them in a position where they have "hit their macros" and are still ravenous. And when you're ravenous, you're likely to eat ... which now puts them "over" their macros/calories. If they, like most people, then try to undereat the next day, well ... again, they end up even hungrier. This is less about calories are more about satiety - what makes you feel full vs. what leaves you empty. Shoot, I can eat two poptarts in nothing flat and not even put a dint in my hunger - but that's 400 calories and 76g of carbs! If you "calorie match" that with a mixed meal, or less processed carb sources, you could basically equate the calories and carbs and come away STUFFED. I would have to eat 6 CUPS of blueberries to get 420 calories / 102 g carbs, but that includes 24g of fiber so it is pretty similar. Or I could eat 13 oz of sweet potato for 402 calories / 62g carbs. Or I could eat 16 oz of cottage cheese + 1 cup blueberries and get 390 calories, 48g protein, and 37g carbs and be quite full. To me, there's a huge difference here, and it is more related to volume (caloric density), things that trigger that "hedonic" sensation where you keep wanting more vs satiating ... But if you were an "IIFYM Bro" from the mid 2000s, you might say that poptarts and snickers "fit your macros" and then fill up on protein powder and chicken breast - because "a calorie is a calorie and a carb is a carb." I think we'd both agree that that approach is not likely to be sustainable or provide good lasting results. But the Bro doesn't invalidate calories or macros, but it does reveal the shortcoming on overly focusing on those while ignoring that we eat food.

And this plays into some of the nutrition approach I encourage - before we talk about taking things away, we talk about things we can add and prioritize. Protein and whole foods can be made priorities (eat more of these, eat them first), and often that "naturally" leads to eating less other "stuff" without the feeling of restraint or deprivation, and over time one can accidentally stumble into a "healthy" diet that helps them maintain a healthier bodyweight without ever (or rarely) feeling like they've "dieted."
in my experimentation with adding back carbs, I halved and quartered slices of bread, weighed slices of fruits, and set out small portions of berries, and counted fractional teaspoons of sugar into my coffee.

near as I can tell my body produces more insulin than others might in response to the consumption of a given amount of carbohydrates.

I learned with some level of certainty that for my goals, for my tolerance levels, it was smarter to control hunger, by swearing off carbs as thoroughly as possible. and it correlates very tightly with the primary focus on the supposed effects of hormones, which are produced by the body in response to a certain composition of macros. why? I don't really know.
I get the response promised by the author, and it's been this way for about a decade.
This is where the rubber meets the road isn't it? And where I won't tell you how to do something "better." If you are happy eating how you are, and have the results you want, there's no reason to change. From my perspective, as a trainer and a coach, the value is in finding something that allows a person to meet their goals.

I don't really want to argue or talk past each other. I enjoy discussing things, but I'm not sure I have much more to say. Again, I am excited that you have seen what you consider satisfactory progress with your method, and none of what I am saying is meant to criticize how you got there. I might disagree with the "why," but that's pretty small peanuts in the end. My parents have seen great results on keto, and even I don't think it is "necessary," I support them and encourage them and keep my thoughts to myself when they tell me I really shouldn't be eating carbs.
 

Ryan T

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
@Adachi why no pic from the front? I guess we know why lol

Even leaving BMI, which you don’t qualify as someone who is carrying too much lean mass to break the measurement, the other popular measurement is if your waist is half your height or less. Yours firmly isn’t. It seems my question where I didn’t understand how someone who hasn’t had success can talk like you did, is answered by you thinking you aren’t obese/have had success.
If @Adachi continues to follow his current strategy and is no longer obese based on the measurements you’ve referenced, would he be able to reiterate the same post without push back? What if he’s 3 lbs shy? Not successful? Most people struggle with some form of stubborn fat and people hold fat differently. That plus large amounts of fat loss may also lead to a lot of loose skin, so tape measurements may not reflect the whole story. This isn’t a contest where someone makes it onto the podium or not.

I may have misread this (because the posts are long and so is the thread) but, I’d say a 50 lbs weight loss is significant progress towards a goal, and using that as grounds to state an opinion about efficacy of Dr. Fung’s models is not inappropriate. Perhaps they are bunk or the results are not due to the mechanisms claimed, but Dr. Fung himself is certainly not obese and he’s had great success with people who come to his clinic.

I’d offer that this post has sparked a thread of information that may have other approaches that just as much or more water depending on who’s attempting them.

@Adachi has also done a good job of modeling humility and grace when responding to your comments which so far, have not added any substantive value. If you’ve got something useful to say, then let’s hear it.
 

bluejeff

Level 6 Valued Member
The deciding factor in both these cases is what is sustainable for the individual, not the "style" itself have a special effect. And this is where I go back to calories - if you can be comfortable and in a deficit following one of these approaches, it is more likely to be sustainable, you're more likely to be consistent, and you're more likely to see results. If you follow one of these approaches and routinely consume considerably more than you need, you'll gain weight.
This^^+1
If you are happy eating how you are, and have the results you want, there's no reason to change. From my perspective, as a trainer and a coach, the value is in finding something that allows a person to meet their goals.
Also this^^ +1

Based on what I've read/examined, I also must disagree with the "why" at this point in time. However, as stated above, if it works for you, use it.

On the note of Jason Fung, specifically, and on folks who sell a "diet model...."
 

watchnerd

Level 8 Valued Member
This^^+1

Also this^^ +1

Based on what I've read/examined, I also must disagree with the "why" at this point in time. However, as stated above, if it works for you, use it.

On the note of Jason Fung, specifically, and on folks who sell a "diet model...."

People who get hyper-focused on the higher TEF of protein should remember:

So you are looking at about a 100 calorie difference per day by DOUBLING protein. I’m not saying it doesn’t matter, but it’s 5% of your daily calorie intake. It’s not going to make a massive difference.

Yes, protein has a higher TEF.

No, it's not a large enough portion of your TDEE to obsess over.
 

Don Fairbanks

SFG II
Certified Instructor
View attachment 19883

Go ahead. call me fat. I am. (y)

you've got a good gripe.
  • Physician, Heal Thyself.
  • if I don't look the part - maybe I ain't.
  • if it walks like a fat duck, talks like a fat duck...
I know what I am.
I know where I'm going.
I know where I came from.

if a picture is worth a thousand words, what's a series of videos shot from an unflattering angle worth?
Check me out
Keep cranking Man. Power To You !

" Learn what is to be taken seriously and laugh at the rest."

------- Herman Hesse
 

CMat

Level 3 Valued Member
Thank you to the poster for this topic and plan to start implementing Dr. Fung's protocols soon.

My father is a type 2 diabetic and I have recently confirmed with my doctor through blood work that my fasting glucose levels are high (insulin sensitive/pre-diabetic). I have great interest in the area as Dr. Fung is one person who seems to be taking a very pro-active approach to the treatment and possible reversal of Diabetes. The standard of care for in Canada for the disease is terrible, I imagine it is the same elsewhere.
 

Adachi

Level 6 Valued Member
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. The Carbohydrate Insulin Model is not convincing to me, or to people deep in the nutrition world that I deeply respect, like Alan Aragon. When calories and protein are equated, it seems to be a wash. Same with the focus on hormones. I think this is where Fung loses credibility.

When you look at studies that equates calories and protein, there doesn't seem to be a difference between low fat/high carb and high fat/low carb groups.

When you look at studies that equates calories but has fasting vs. traditional eating pattern, you don't see a difference.

If CIM or hormone manipulation was the "best fit" model, you wouldn't predict either of these.

The deciding factor in both these cases is what is sustainable for the individual, not the "style" itself have a special effect. And this is where I go back to calories - if you can be comfortable and in a deficit following one of these approaches, it is more likely to be sustainable, you're more likely to be consistent, and you're more likely to see results. If you follow one of these approaches and routinely consume considerably more than you need, you'll gain weight.
Sure, I guess I'll try my hand at finding a patch of common ground. I'll take your statement as the deciding factor being what's sustainable for that individual is as close to the gospel truth as anyone's gonna get. for some reason, some people, make use of the Carb Insulin Model, to inform their choices, and it works. maybe it's a case of being right by accident. I'll stop right there.
Agreed, which I think can be seen in the money analogy I used earlier. Telling someone to eat less isn't that helpful. It isn't that it is wrong - it just isn't helpful. I kinda go into this more below.
A perfect fit.
And this plays into some of the nutrition approach I encourage - before we talk about taking things away, we talk about things we can add and prioritize. Protein and whole foods can be made priorities (eat more of these, eat them first), and often that "naturally" leads to eating less other "stuff" without the feeling of restraint or deprivation, and over time one can accidentally stumble into a "healthy" diet that helps them maintain a healthier bodyweight without ever (or rarely) feeling like they've "dieted."
That sounds like a great approach. I think the whole list of So-Called Low-Carb doctors I've followed (Dr. Fung included) have intimated signing on to this kind of recommendation at one point or another. I think a lot of the people I follow(ed) are more concerned with edge cases, or someone who's already off the map and is in need of treatment.

To start with whole foods(knowing what you're eating, maybe by cooking it yourself), prioritizing protein (some recommend leaner or fattier for varied reasons), and trying things out(being more deliberate with our eating in and of itself helps so much) is pretty much the best we can do.
I don't really want to argue or talk past each other. I enjoy discussing things, but I'm not sure I have much more to say. Again, I am excited that you have seen what you consider satisfactory progress with your method, and none of what I am saying is meant to criticize how you got there. I might disagree with the "why," but that's pretty small peanuts in the end. My parents have seen great results on keto, and even I don't think it is "necessary," I support them and encourage them and keep my thoughts to myself when they tell me I really shouldn't be eating carbs.
I appreciate you taking the time.
And I'll say there is such a thing as a human, who knows of what they speak, who disagrees with me.
I call them smart people.
 

Kirill

Level 2 Valued Member
Reading the arguments online in favour of one kind of weight loss approach or another always misses the elephant in the room: long-term sustainability of the weight loss in the real world. Anyone strapped to a treadmill for sixteen hours each day, and fed only a morsel of salmon for breakfast, lunch, dinner and in-between will certainly lose weight. Can that be maintained indefinitely for the rest of one's life in the face of day jobs, growing kids, sleepless nights, and other life challenges? Doubtful. We wouldn't have a worldwide obesity epidemic otherwise.

Intermittent fasting has allowed me to maintain a stable weight for years with little effort, with little fluctuation brought on by the stress of parenthood. Is it ideal? No, I won't be winning Mr. Olympia, but if I attempted to stick to any other diet I'd be a helluva lot rounder. With fasting I am working with my body's hormonal system to manage my weight, instead of fighting it. I treat calorie reduction as a beneficial side-effect of fasting, rather than the primary goal. My willpower reserve is spent on my job and family, rather than counting calories and tracking macros three times a day. That is what the real world demands. Like S&S+antiglycolytic exercise help you lay a foundation for being an asset to your family when it comes to strength and having some "gas left in the tank", so does intermittent fasting with respect to willpower, energy levels, and fat loss.

If you are a dedicated athlete with lots of "free time", spending hours at the gym and precisely tracking your nutrition with CICO, great! It's admirable what you're able to achieve, and I won't badmouth it. However, I am not. I work behind a laptop all day, and I have two small children to raise, so my time budget is limited. I suspect a lot of people are in the latter situation. Because I've had tremendous long-term success with my approach, I will sing it's praises at every opportunity to help people who are in similar situations.
 

Adachi

Level 6 Valued Member
  • Hormones DO matter. Drop a man's T levels through the floor and he'll dump muscle and pick up fat in record time
Finally, at the end of the day, calories DO actually matter. I too, often use the concentration camp victims as proof.
I do recall someone smarter than me (can't remember the name but he's someone who is not a fan of the insulin-centric idea) describing his view on blaming insulin for all your woes this way :
It's not all about insulin.​
It's not all about the calories.​
It's a two-way street.​
One effects the other like in a dance.​
 

silveraw

Level 7 Valued Member
@Adachi why no pic from the front? I guess we know why lol

Even leaving BMI, which you don’t qualify as someone who is carrying too much lean mass to break the measurement, the other popular measurement is if your waist is half your height or less. Yours firmly isn’t. It seems my question where I didn’t understand how someone who hasn’t had success can talk like you did, is answered by you thinking you aren’t obese/have had success.
Ironically one of the reasons I dislike Dr Fung is that he does this exact sort of thing.

@Adachi You're a good level headed guy. I've enjoyed discussing our common ground.
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Top Bottom