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Off-Topic Jason Fung Did Nothing Wrong

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watchnerd

Level 8 Valued Member
I recently had this done. I figured being in my middle age it would good to get a yearly baseline. The men's health clinical did several panels and went through all the results with me. My T was a bit low but in the normal range. They didn't recommend T because the subjective questionnaire didn't reflect symptoms of low T. The MD's comment was we're not just numbers. My Vit D levels were really low so I started taking 5,000 IUs.

Can I ask what Vit D you're taking?
 

Adachi

Level 6 Valued Member
I recently had this done. I figured being in my middle age it would good to get a yearly baseline. The men's health clinical did several panels and went through all the results with me. My T was a bit low but in the normal range. They didn't recommend T because the subjective questionnaire didn't reflect symptoms of low T. The MD's comment was we're not just numbers. My Vit D levels were really low so I started taking 5,000 IUs.
My wife would be very relieved if I got an everything panel . The only reason I got lipid panels was too help convince her that I wasn't eating the gonna have a heart attack right now diet. She very ungraciously demurred, and is still very skeptical. The labs were all within range the doctor was very bored to report that there wasn't much to discuss.
 

watchnerd

Level 8 Valued Member
While this thread has taken many directions, I am surprised no one mentioned this StrongFirst fat loss method:
Or perhaps no one has spoken about why this one does not (supposedly?) require dieting for fat loss.

I liked Dry Fighting Weight.

Body comp results for me were probably 70-80% of what I get during weightlifting competition prep, but easier on the joints and less recovery debt.

Although when I'm in weightlifting competition prep I'm eating much more than I did on DFW, particularly due to the higher recovery costs.
 
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Adachi

Level 6 Valued Member
Zerchers maybe? Anterior chain gainz.
Maybe.

I took one cycle of of zercher from 135lbs to 215lbs on the bar, and my quads decided they were undertrained and decided to try to double in size. I gained 20 lbs that stuck. And brought me from 225 to 245, walking around. I think zerchers like me more than I like them. I lost practically all my pants due to tears. Zerchers owe me like 80 bucks in pants.
 

watchnerd

Level 8 Valued Member
Maybe.

I took one cycle of of zercher from 135lbs to 215lbs on the bar, and my quads decided they were undertrained and decided to try to double in size. I gained 20 lbs that stuck. And brought me from 225 to 245, walking around. I think zerchers like me more than I like them. I lost practically all my pants due to tears. Zerchers owe me like 80 bucks in pants.

20 lbs of muscle from going from a 135 lb to 215 lb squat has to be a record for biggest newbie gains, with the smallest increase of weight on the bar, I've heard in my life.

You're the opposite of a hard gainer!
 

Adachi

Level 6 Valued Member
20 lbs of muscle from going from a 135 lb to 215 lb squat has to be a record for biggest newbie gains, with the smallest increase of weight on the bar, I've heard in my life.

You're the opposite of a hard gainer!
I cut off the cycle and switched to deadlifts when I lost my second pair of pants. But it was too late. I ripped a pair getting in our out of my car almost every day. I only had 1 or 2 pairs left by the time the replacement stretchy Dockers came in the mail.

Maybe now that I have stretchy pants I don't need to be scared of the zercher for now.
 

Ryan T

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
Thank you for elaborating.
We can without doubt say that calorie restriction causes weight loss. Whether caloric restriction can’t occur due to behavioral, societal, environmental factors is a separate discussion but that is indisputable.
Fact, but at some point all approaches have to be modified and tweaked. Your body adapts to a certain stimulus. CICO may work initially and then other approaches may have to come into play. It’s probable the same holds true for someone using Dr. Fung’s approach.

When I had significant body fat loss with one of the anecdotes I mentioned, CICO was part of the approach, and an important one, but it was not the only thing at play.
Context also matters. If he were to continue the weight loss, yes he would be right and vindicated. Would this post be updated if he failed or succeeded? No? Then the post shouldn’t occur until he has succeeded, because it is now memorialized on the internet and without context will only further cause spread of misinformation.
You’re saying that what @Adachi claims is misinformation until he is the normal or ideal range? If it’s truly misinformation then it will always be wrong regardless of who says it.

To the point about misinformation, human beings also have the capacity to evaluate what they see and read to determine what is and isn't true.
If someone who can deadlift 135#, made a similar post on deadlift training they would be told to shut up and train. They aren’t strong enough to have an opinion and I’ve seen it happen on this forum and others countless times. Is it celebrated that he went from the bar to 135#, so he has had success and should speak his opinion? Is it stated that he might be strong someday in the future so his opinion currently is valid? Why is that strength shaming different?
This is a fair point; we can get pretty touchy about weight issues and nutrition. @Adachi has not created this approach but he is making significant progress by following it and many others have followed it to great success. It’s unlikely to work for everyone at every time either.

I don't go everywhere on the S1 forums so I'm probably missing where strength shaming happens.
Does his post carry a different context once you realize the body he keeps describing as “not obese” and a “power body” is in fact obese? Of course it does, why is pointing out that he lied a negative? Sure it’s impolite, but he could have also not attempted to soap box something he shouldn’t have.
I've probably missed the denial of obesity somewhere here, but I did see where he responded to you saying that he was fat (which ventures into the realm of self perception).

You are within your rights to use direct language to express an unvarnished opinion, and I respect the fact that you expanded on your thoughts. The only dog I have in this fight is your responses seem trollish and there's no reason for it.
 

Pete L

Level 5 Valued Member
In the process of losing 30kg I went on lots and lots of diets discarding each and moving to the next due to dissatisfaction with the results, but everything works for a while so I ultimately reached my goal. Looking back the most effective approaches (for me) were diametrically opposed ideologically: Weight Watchers, Ultra Low Carb and Ultra Low Fat. I would describe all three as very effective short to medium term body fat reduction strategies. Weight Watchers has the advantage of being able to eat anything but it’s a bummer if portion control isn’t your thing - I was often mildly hungry. Ultra Low Carb means carb intake low enough to bounce around ketosis (without keto being the goal) and in a world saturated with carbs requires some advance planning around meals. Ultra Low Fat is not as inconvenient because bread and rice are cheap and plentiful, you just need to be choosy about what you put on them. Ultra Low Carb and Ultra Low Fat have the advantage that portion sizes don’t seem to matter as much.
Chloe Madeley advocates rotating the low fat / low carb diets on a daily basis.
She's married to a former England rugby player FWIW.

 

Adachi

Level 6 Valued Member
Chloe Madeley advocates rotating the low fat / low carb diets on a daily basis.
She's married to a former England rugby player FWIW.

yeah - I'm a fan of periodicity, in general.
(anecdotally in more than one case I'm aware of) It seems to elicit an outsized benefit for the lesser amounts of intervention than I have taken up.

I'll take this opportunity to further clarify the bounds of my sentiments. I am aware that there is a sizeable segment of the population who develop a much smaller population of lipo-lipase at a significantly lower rate than I seem to, and others have been observed to produce. thus they can not harvest energy from free fatty acids at the same rate as I would. and they, eating my diet, would feel very hungry all the time, and that would be unfair to them, to subject them to such restrictions.

Periodicity - is a fine strategy that works for many, and seems to be particularly of interest to sports players who enjoy some of the collateral benefits of low-carb consumption while being able to top off muscular and hepatic glucose reserves for better performance all the way around.

stated differently - (especially) if you're a competitive athlete and you are not investigating or incorporating carbohydrates as a dietary fuel source - due to some sentiment, or preference - you might be a very silly person who may be unnecessarily handicapping your own performance in your sport.
 

Hrungnir

Level 6 Valued Member
Fact, but at some point all approaches have to be modified and tweaked. Your body adapts to a certain stimulus. CICO may work initially and then other approaches may have to come into play. It’s probable the same holds true for someone using Dr. Fung’s approach.

When I had significant body fat loss with one of the anecdotes I mentioned, CICO was part of the approach, and an important one, but it was not the only thing at play.

You’re saying that what @Adachi claims is misinformation until he is the normal or ideal range? If it’s truly misinformation then it will always be wrong regardless of who says it.

To the point about misinformation, human beings also have the capacity to evaluate what they see and read to determine what is and isn't true.

This is a fair point; we can get pretty touchy about weight issues and nutrition. @Adachi has not created this approach but he is making significant progress by following it and many others have followed it to great success. It’s unlikely to work for everyone at every time either.

I don't go everywhere on the S1 forums so I'm probably missing where strength shaming happens.

I've probably missed the denial of obesity somewhere here, but I did see where he responded to you saying that he was fat (which ventures into the realm of self perception).

You are within your rights to use direct language to express an unvarnished opinion, and I respect the fact that you expanded on your thoughts. The only dog I have in this fight is your responses seem trollish and there's no reason for it.
Sorry I don’t know how to break up these quote boxes.

It is misinformation, I’m saying shut up and do it until you have evidence it’s not. That would in this case be anecdotal success. Do I think he can make that success? No, but if he did then I would be forced to re evaluate and accept the legitimacy. Nutrition is gray enough there is still a lot of “bro fitness” that can occur and success might occur for a million different factors and not the machinations that are thought to have caused it.

Humans do, but they do so with context and this is a forum where people come to learn from people who speak for authority and experience. If he is presented as someone knows what they are talking about and people discuss with him as a peer, that changes how they view what he said. We (or at least half of the US) decided two years ago that deliberate spread of misinformation as it pertains to a health crisis should be flagged and labeled as such for public health. Obesity is quite possibly the largest health crisis in the western world and the amount of deliberate misinformation should disgust us all. Without touching the economic driven misinformation; there is a large issue where that misinformation is used to shift the responsibility of one’s own health away from that individual, by doing things like claiming others are metabolically privileged , they are predisposed to be 700 pounds or calorie restriction doesn’t work (all were in this post).

His acceptance came after three posts of mine, the one before it is the one where he claimed he had a power body and then purposefully misled by showing a picture of him young and just his back. I can’t see how that post wasnt intentionally misleading as to his body type which is why I responded as bluntly as I did.
 
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Ryan T

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
For quoting, you can highlight a block of text and there should be a little pop up that allows you to quote or reply. If you click or tap quote, you can go down to the response box and there's a button to insert quotes. It will show you everything you have selected to quote and give you the option to remove or insert. If I want to break quotes up in the multiple things I'll just highlight each block or chunk of text I want to address separately, insert them all and then type my responses up in between them.
It is misinformation, I’m saying shut up and do it until you have evidence it’s not. That would in this case be anecdotal success. Do I think he can make that success? No, but if he did then I would be forced to re evaluate and accept the legitimacy. Nutrition is gray enough there is still a lot of “bro fitness” that can occur and success might occur for a million different factors and not the machinations that are thought to have caused it.
I'm glad that you've said more, but I don't think it forces you to do anything other than to say "Good for you. You've proven that whatever you've done worked for you regardless of how it actually worked." It's an N=1, and the only difference between that and many other anecdotes you may find validating that approach is that you've interacted with this person directly.
Humans do, but they do so with context and this is a forum where people come to learn from people who speak for authority and experience. If he is presented as someone knows what they are talking about and people discuss with him as a peer, that changes how they view what he said.
I think I'm following you here. I believe what you're saying is there's a difference between interacting with someone who's seen as an authority vs a peer who may have personal experience. Many people are peers on this forum and are perceived as such by each other or at least that is the context I've been operating from. Most of the people are peers in that sense. I'd say two types of people may adopt the approach he's taken: folks that already inclined to believe it are interested in it or folks that have tried different approaches with no success.

There are people here who are trained in nutrition and have commented (you included), so that information should be given good weight. Plenty of folks that have interacted on this thread that have expressed differing sets of anecdotes or researched information so there's something to be said about a community providing multiple view points on the same subject.
Obesity is quite possibly the largest health crisis in the western world and the amount of deliberate misinformation should disgust us all.
I'm not totally sure what qualifies as misinformation here, but I will agree that there's a lot of pop culture that surrounds it and it's been heavily monetized. This disease of Western civilization has also been normalized as something positive. I get what you are saying, however I don't think there's been any deliberate misleading of anything here.
Without touching the economic driven misinformation; there is a large issue where that misinformation is used to shift the responsibility of one’s own health away from that individual, by doing things like claiming others are metabolically privileged , they are predisposed to be 700 pounds or calorie restriction doesn’t work (all were in this post).
"Metabolically privileged" seems to be the trigger phrase, and if that was the end of the statement, then I think you could make a case the individual is not taking appropriate responsibility for their own health. Based on what I've read on this thread, @Adachi appears to be taking ownership of making changes to drive the changes needed, and his efforts in the past of using the conventional CICO did not work. He's not at the end goal but he's making good progress in that direction.

I think you can dispute the mechanisms for change. Perhaps whatever is being done actually ends up as CICO, but framing it up differently allows created changes in behavior that lead to it. I/We don't know what the actual energy intake and expenditure are. Precision Nutrition talks about somatotypes and some guidelines around eating strategies around each. I believe there have been studies that seem to debunk it, but the model itself has been useful to promote change.
His acceptance came after three posts of mine, the one before it is the one where he claimed he had a power body and then purposefully misled by showing a picture of him young and just his back. I can’t see how that post wasnt intentionally misleading as to his body type which is why I responded as bluntly as I did.
Alright. I won't push back on this anymore, because I may have missed it somewhere. I still don't know that being so blunt is necessary to get whatever response would satisfy you.

I don't live inside your mind, but it seemed like you had mentally categorized what the OP said as misinformation from the get go and the fact that he isn't yet in the normal range for BMI or other measurements was subordinate to that opinion.

I have no problem with you and I appreciate that you are passionate about getting people healthy. We can interact further via PM if you wish, but I think we've probably reached the limits of this particular discussion on this thread.
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Elite Certified Instructor
we've probably reached the limits of this particular discussion on this thread.
I agree. Let's close this one now and we can revisit diet issues as necessary where, perhaps, our Diet and Nutrition section would be a better place.

I don't go everywhere on the S1 forums so I'm probably missing where strength shaming happens.
This does not happen here at all, I hope.

-S-
 
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