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Kettlebell Kettlebell AXE - general discussion

Paotle said:
Base for GPP is aerobic training (constant Z2) and traditionnal (pure) strength training. AXE does neither. More exactly, not enough endurance and not enough strength development for GPP.
However, it can be an interesting additional tool, but surely not in the top 3 of GPP best protocols.
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I'm a month into it and I kinda get the feeling it is a easy middle ground. It doesn't take as long as a LISS run, is lower impact, and is convenient. Also doesn't have the "ok, I'm about to sprint up this hill and feel like death is knocking on my door" you get from more traditional intervals.

It definitely doesn't pack the punch of those two but I'm getting some results and I don't dread the workout. My intra set recovery is improving on strength days, I haven't seen much of a change on my RHR really.
(Keep in mind that my aerobic base is awful. Last time I did LISS focus was over a year ago and spent many months off conditioning. Most of it came from heavy loaded carry intervals, which aren't great for general conditioning.)

Edit: should also mention I'm not using it for strength GPP, for that I use 531 type programming.
 
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Paotle said:
Absolutely. Power training and sprint training is <10s effort and 5-10 minutes recovery. Nothing like the OTM of AXE.
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Well, that is semantics then. IIRC, you have a sprinting background. As stated above, there is a continuum of power training (at least when we consider fiber activation). In S&S Pavel states that very powerful athletes take longer to recover between sets (like 3 minutes after 10 swings, or 2 minutes after something like 5 swings), so that might be you - and then you would have to go lighter than what you consider "powerful" for OTM training. But from a GPP perspective, AXE still falls under the large umbrella of power training, IMO.
 
Paotle said:
Absolutely. Power training and sprint training is <10s effort and 5-10 minutes recovery. Nothing like the OTM of AXE.
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That's true.
For pure power or sprint training you should rest ~10min because of CP recovery, but CP recovery is non-linear. You get back most of it in only 30sec to 3min (~90% recovery). And it takes another 3-5min for the last 10% to recover.
So by resting only for 1-2min you get a good amount of power training, not as much as pure power training, but plenty.
And for the average joe that's enough and much more economical, because average joe doesn't want to (and need to) dedicate an entire 2 hour training session to maximize his/her power development.
Pure power or speed training is for professional athletes.

IMO you're right that AXE doesn't build strength as good as pure strength training, power as good as pure power training and endurance as good as pure endurance training, but it builds all of those qualities in the same session while being much more time efficient. That makes it perfect for GPP.
 
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Bauer said:
Well, that is semantics then. IIRC, you have a sprinting background. As stated above, there is a continuum of power training (at least when we consider fiber activation). In S&S Pavel states that very powerful athletes take longer to recover between sets (like 3 minutes after 10 swings, or 2 minutes after something like 5 swings), so that might be you - and then you would have to go lighter than what you consider "powerful" for OTM training. But from a GPP perspective, AXE still falls under the large umbrella of power training, IMO.
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Yes, I have a sprinting background. I wouldn't consider myself as powerful but quick and explosive yes. I'm typically very good at sprinting and jumps, but not so good at olympic lifting and strength. I take long to recover and even very easy Z2 training (way below Aerobic Threshold, <2mmol/L) is crushing me for days. Weird physiology, but driven by genetics because my father and grandfather were good sprinters, too.
For that reason, AXE is more, for me, an intermediate (between power and aerobic) conditionning method. It won't make you powerful or explosive. The work/rest ratio is too high.
 
Just finished the book, loved the minimalist approach as always (I started KBs with S&S). Quick question (sorry if already discussed at this chat): why double swings are not listed as an option? In many gyms it is hard to find KBs heavier than 24kg so doing doubles would be a great solution for someone that uses heavier bells.
 
Paotle said:
Yes, I have a sprinting background. I wouldn't consider myself as powerful but quick and explosive yes. I'm typically very good at sprinting and jumps, but not so good at olympic lifting and strength. I take long to recover and even very easy Z2 training (way below Aerobic Threshold, <2mmol/L) is crushing me for days. Weird physiology, but driven by genetics because my father and grandfather were good sprinters, too.
For that reason, AXE is more, for me, an intermediate (between power and aerobic) conditionning method. It won't make you powerful or explosive. The work/rest ratio is too high.
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You read to be lacking GPP. But, hey, well done on being powerful.
 
marcio trigueiro said:
Just finished the book, loved the minimalist approach as always (I started KBs with S&S). Quick question (sorry if already discussed at this chat): why double swings are not listed as an option? In many gyms it is hard to find KBs heavier than 24kg so doing doubles would be a great solution for someone that uses heavier bells.
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I believe this was an option outlined in a newsletter; One rep every twenty seconds.
 
Anybody have some killer oblique stretches to use after H2H swings? My RHS needs some love after having a play with them on monday.
 
I have now done couple weeks AXE swings and get ups after swings. I´ve noticed there´s no big difference compared to S&S, feeling is quite same after it. In S&S I do swings normally also roughly OTM. So is S&S also A+A if you do it "OTM"?

Lets say the one do AXE swings monday 6 reps / 30 sets and thursday 6 reps / 20 sets, 300 reps total/week.
OR S&S swings mon/wed/fri 10 reps / 10 sets, 300 reps total/week. Is there notable difference in progress?
 
Just had another read through of the book, and although I am at least 3 months from it, can someone, perhaps even @Pavel clear up the Double expresso "execution" for me?

The second series, after you have regained your breath and brought your heart rate to the specified rate - is this series also at the higher density than normal (ie the same as the first "espresso")? I assume it is, and after typing it I'm pretty sure I've answered my own question...
 
Tom7 said:
So is S&S also A+A if you do it "OTM"?
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I would think that doing it timeless would be more in line with AXE (and "classic A+A").
Here is a detailed comment by Al Ciampa on it:
Al Ciampa said:
S&S swings is alactic work+aerobic recovery “IF” you do not crunch the rest intervals, whether driven by ego or, “it feels easy today”. For the plan to work, you have to stimulate the body for the adaptation you seek.

That you can do more work in less time (condensed S&S swings), on any given day, does not mean you are stimulating the proper cellular adaptations, and so, you will hit a wall in your training, re: not make it to the next bell size, or not achieve 100 x swings in 5 min with your current bell.

The “thing” that you should be trying to stimulate with this protocol is doing more work under aerobic-dominant fueling. This takes patience and discipline. Rest longer, be patient, do the work, and over a short period of time, you will increase your work output while still being aerobic. Then, you can “test” while fueled predominantly by glycolysis. Whatever your test outcome, go back to training under aerobic fueling.

Just because glycolysis is always there to kick in, like a turbo charger, and increase your output, does not mean that this is also the goal of your training. So, rest longer… do not forcefully reduce your rest periods… let your body adapt and your rest periods will natrually decrease… I’m certain that I read this some place before…. ;]

There is some anecdotal evidence that if you train properly and patiently, you can achieve 100 x swings in 5 min while being aerobic. So, train to a HR, or lactate threshold, or rest longer during your swings—whatever you like to call it–but training is different from competing.
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Source: The Patience of Strength: the Russian Science of Rest Intervals | StrongFirst


lais817 said:
The second series, after you have regained your breath and brought your heart rate to the specified rate - is this series also at the higher density than normal (ie the same as the first "espresso")? I assume it is, and after typing it I'm pretty sure I've answered my own question...
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Pretty sure it is the same setup as during the first series.
 
Christoph W. said:
• 50-70% of 1RM
• 1-3 reps per set
• Rest: 30sec - 2min (-> OTM is very good)
• Maximum of 100 reps per session
• Follow Strongfirst stop signs

That's how you apply AXE to grinds like presses, squats, etc. according to the Strong Endurance seminar.
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Nice. What do you think which kettlebell presses would be better for gpp , a+a style or lets say 5x5 and it's variations?
 
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