Strong Endurance "Lactate is a great fuel for neurons"

[Ondra Růžek]

I recently came upon this post:

Lactate, the “ugly duckling” of metabolism, is a fuel source, one that your brain prefers over even sugar. How can one become a lactate metabolizing machine?

We’re doing a pre-class conditioning session (right before class) - working with high volume, moderate intensity and short rest (without compromising technique, of course).

With lower rep ranges, the muscle has enough creatine phosphate to sustain effort, without relying on other fuel sources.
With much higher rep ranges, the intensity has to be low enough, so simple fat oxidation is sufficient to sustain the effort.

But when working within a certain window where the reps are high but the intensity still high enough, energy production comes primarily from glycolysis - the breakdown of glucose ( sugar)

This process produces lactate and hydrogen ions. And lactate is a gift for physiological adaptation - it stimulates growth hormone, which is a key hormone in triggering fat loss and muscle growth.

In addition, this kind of training creates better fatigue resistance. Lactate is a very potent fuel source - but the body needs to learn how to use it. A lot of talk about improving lactate threshold, but people usually think of this as “avoiding” lactate. That’s not the ultimate goal of improving the lactate threshold… Having a high lactate threshold means you can metabolize higher amounts of lactate, using it as a fuel source. For example, lactate is a great fuel for neurons (neurons have been shown to prefer lactate over glucose!)

Could lactate have some benefit for our health and performance? Especially brain health? What is your opinion on that? (Yes, I'am educated in Strong Endurance philosophy. I asked the author for the scientific source of his claims but haven't received it yet.)

 

[North Coast Miller]

The science is undeniable.

 

[John K]

Could lactate have some benefit for our health and performance? Especially brain health? What is your opinion on that?

Yes. Like Miller said, the science is pretty solid at this point that lactate is an amazing lil guy in our bodies. George Brooks has a lot of free research you can find and read and has done a TON of work changing how we understand lactate.

 

[paules]

Nice explanation here by Inigo San Milan who worked with Brooks:

 

[Anna C]

Sometimes the measure that we use as a proxy for something else gets incorrectly targeted directly, much like we were discussing here: Other/Mixed - To manipulate HR or not to?

Lactate can be measured in the blood and indicates the amount of glycolysis and therefore hydrogen ions present (which is the actual bad guy), so sometimes lactate gets targeted as the bad guy, when it really is not.

 

[rwleonard]

A lot of the current discussion gets muddied by talking about Lactate, Hydrogen ions, and Lactic Acid as if they are seperate things. Acids dissociate into H+ and something else. That something else is a negatively charged Chlorine ion in the case of Hydrochloric Acid, and Lactate in the case of Lactic Acid. So Lactic Acid is the source of both the Lactate and the H+.

I would suspect another reason Lactate is used as a proxy for H+ is that there could be any number of sources for H+ production, so if one measured H+ directly, one could not be certain of its origin.

 

[wespom9]

I think both of the following are true

• lactate is beneficial (we always have some resting value)
• high (acute) levels of lactate interfere with performance/muscle contraction/motor control

Also true

• lots of glycolytic exercise works for a bit until it doesn't (why most 'peaking' programs are shorter
• 'strong endurance' is not 'no glycolysis ever'

Also true

• delaying the rise in lactate (while increasing intensity) is beneficial
• being able to metabolize higher loads is beneficial

I don't think any of this is contradictory

 

[North Coast Miller]

Lactate levels, pH, H+, don't track with force production fatigue in vivo. As with ROS etc, it is an indirect measure of type 2: type 1 contribution to an effort. Which means if lactate is high, so is inorganic phosphate, so also the inverse of CrP levels, which means your aerobic system can't handle the demand, whether it be lactate (pyruvate) or palmitate (fat).

Lactate is essentially a stable form of pyruvate. Inorganic phosphate is the primary driver of metabolic fatigue.

 

[John K]

A lot of the current discussion gets muddied by talking about Lactate, Hydrogen ions, and Lactic Acid as if they are seperate things. Acids dissociate into H+ and something else. That something else is a negatively charged Chlorine ion in the case of Hydrochloric Acid, and Lactate in the case of Lactic Acid. So Lactic Acid is the source of both the Lactate and the H+.

I would suspect another reason Lactate is used as a proxy for H+ is that there could be any number of sources for H+ production, so if one measured H+ directly, one could not be certain of its origin.

So far current understanding is lactate is generated, not lactic acid that disassociates into lactate and H, as the lactate/H relationship doesn’t work for what we’re seeing - eg the stoichiometry doesn’t balance. We have way too much lactate.

 

[HarryBergers]

Sometimes the measure that we use as a proxy for something else gets incorrectly targeted directly, much like we were discussing here: Other/Mixed - To manipulate HR or not to?

Lactate can be measured in the blood and indicates the amount of glycolysis and therefore hydrogen ions present (which is the actual bad guy), so sometimes lactate gets targeted as the bad guy, when it really is not.

Only during anaerobic glycolysis is this true (afaik), like during intense exercise.

It's pretty easy to target lactate as the bad guy when context gets thrown out the window, ie comparing zone 2+ training to AGT, or conflating whatever lactic acid is with lactate.

A lot of the current discussion gets muddied by talking about Lactate, Hydrogen ions, and Lactic Acid as if they are seperate things. Acids dissociate into H+ and something else. That something else is a negatively charged Chlorine ion in the case of Hydrochloric Acid, and Lactate in the case of Lactic Acid. So Lactic Acid is the source of both the Lactate and the H+.

I would suspect another reason Lactate is used as a proxy for H+ is that there could be any number of sources for H+ production, so if one measured H+ directly, one could not be certain of its origin.

That Rob Robergs fella would say that lactic acid never existed inside the body outside of the need to make organic chemistry math easier.

Outside of intense exercise lactate levels can rise quite a lot apparently without any excess H+ during aerobic glycolysis.



All of the studies I've seen being proponents of lactate proper use aerobic exercise as the production mechanism instead of high intensity exercises. Bike of various exertions vs KB snatches for reps with a 5-10rm weight. These are completely different universes and we should take care in making these distinctions if we're trying to do .. this.

 

[silveraw]

Test

I'm not sure. Does shooting Test improve the ability to utilize lactate?

 

[Denys Carthusian]

Ahem.

Long-term and daily use of molecular hydrogen induces reprogramming of liver metabolism in rats by modulating NADP/NADPH redox pathways

 

[John K]

Ahem.

Long-term and daily use of molecular hydrogen induces reprogramming of liver metabolism in rats by modulating NADP/NADPH redox pathways

I feel like this is completely irrelevant to the topic.

 

[Adachi]

I feel like this is completely irrelevant to the topic.

I feel like @Denys Carthusian might bring up something that is at least tangentially , possibly related.

I guess as a layperson (I took chem and bio chem, and it was very difficult for me ) a dumb question can be asked.

Does Hydrogen Ion in vivo Produced in correlation with intense exercise ever form H2, and provide such an effect at some level in humans?

 

[Spartan Agoge]

So, how do we apply this knowledge in our training? How do we get the benefits of lactate without the downsides of too much glycolysis?
Should we do 1 high rep set(20-30) close to failure once per week for each muscle group, after our regular training? Twice per week? Once every 2 weeks? How much is enough and how much is too much?
Or are rep schemes like 5x10 better than just 1 set of very high reps?

 

[rwleonard]

So far current understanding is lactate is generated, not lactic acid that disassociates into lactate and H, as the lactate/H relationship doesn’t work for what we’re seeing - eg the stoichiometry doesn’t balance. We have way too much lactate.

You and NCM got me reading. Thanks!:

Lactate: Not Gilty as Charged

www.unm.edu

 

[Denys Carthusian]

I feel like this is completely irrelevant to the topic.

I take Molecular Hydrogen every day for exactly the reasons listed above. The discussion of lactate and hydrogen ions seem to be related, so I'm getting very curious if this could unify some threads I've been following in biochemistry for awhile.

 

[North Coast Miller]

So, how do we apply this knowledge in our training? How do we get the benefits of lactate without the downsides of too much glycolysis?
Should we do 1 high rep set(20-30) close to failure once per week for each muscle group, after our regular training? Twice per week? Once every 2 weeks? How much is enough and how much is too much?
Or are rep schemes like 5x10 better than just 1 set of very high reps?

First you have to define what the downsides of glycolysis are, or what is too much glycolysis. Not theoretically or in people with metabolic disorders, or in folks doing very extreme sub-max training regimens.

Is it even a relevant concern compared to what adaptive responses you want? Limit strength, power, hypertrophy, high output (lactate threshold) endurance. In most cases you won't come near to a hazardous level of ROS exposure with a sustainable training program.

Even then, ROS antioxidant capacity is linked to chronic exposure level. It improves over time, is overwhelmed by sudden acute overloads.

Your training approach might be ineffective for your goals, but is unlikely to cause you physical harm.

 

[silveraw]

I take Molecular Hydrogen every day for exactly the reasons listed above.

Doesn't LSD do something similar to the metabolism as well?

 

[John K]

I feel like @Denys Carthusian might bring up something that is at least tangentially , possibly related.

I guess as a layperson (I took chem and bio chem, and it was very difficult for me ) a dumb question can be asked.

Does Hydrogen Ion in vivo Produced in correlation with intense exercise ever form H2, and provide such an effect at some level in humans?

No, humans don't really make molecular hydrogen (H2). You really only see it in humans via microbes such as pathogens.

I take Molecular Hydrogen every day for exactly the reasons listed above. The discussion of lactate and hydrogen ions seem to be related, so I'm getting very curious if this could unify some threads I've been following in biochemistry for awhile.

Despite both having the word hydrogen, hydrogen ions and molecular hydrogen are two very very different things. I'm not criticizing your uses of H2 or any potential therapeutic benefits, but it is like conflating amino acids with lactic acid because they both have acid in the name.