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Strong Endurance "Lactate is a great fuel for neurons"

John K said:
No, humans don't really make molecular hydrogen (H2). You really only see it in humans via microbes such as pathogens.

Despite both having the word hydrogen, hydrogen ions and molecular hydrogen are two very very different things. I'm not criticizing your uses of H2 or any potential therapeutic benefits, but it is like conflating amino acids with lactic acid because they both have acid in the name.
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Okay, but are you saying that (bear in mind I just guzzled my hydrogen water 2 minutes ago) that if I exercised to trigger lactate an hour ago (before I ingested my hydrogen water) I should experience no difference in recovery than if I performed that lactate triggering exercise after ingesting the hydrogen water?
 
Denys Carthusian said:
Okay, but are you saying that (bear in mind I just guzzled my hydrogen water 2 minutes ago) that if I exercised to trigger lactate an hour ago (before I ingested my hydrogen water) I should experience no difference in recovery than if I performed that lactate triggering exercise after ingesting the hydrogen water?
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A quick google search gave me this meta study about it: Hydrogen Water: Extra Healthy or a Hoax?—A Systematic Review

To me it reads that it kinda helps a little in less fit individuals and almost not at all in the higher trained individuals group. In the best cases the effect is very small.

What I'm curious about now is that it seems to blunt inflammation from exercise a bit. I know that the inflammatory response is part of the process of building muscle and endurance, I wonder if it is similar to ice baths. Where it helps you "recover" from exercise by basically halting the adaptive response to that exercise.
 
Denys Carthusian said:
Okay, but are you saying that (bear in mind I just guzzled my hydrogen water 2 minutes ago) that if I exercised to trigger lactate an hour ago (before I ingested my hydrogen water) I should experience no difference in recovery than if I performed that lactate triggering exercise after ingesting the hydrogen water?
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1. Hydrogen in water is not the same as a molecule of hydrogen, and if you are drinking water that has hydrogen molecules the hydrogen molecules are not going to be interacting with the lactate. If your body cleaves the water, then it is possible those hydrogens might be used in a buffer system with lactate, but that is totally separate from hydrogen molecules.

As far as I am aware, humans do not generate or split hydrogen molecules (two atoms of hydrogen bonded together). Micro-organisms that live in humans might, but as far as I'm aware most of those are pathogenic.

I want to make sure we are all talking about the same thing.

This is a molecule of hydrogen:
1712335233564.png

It is largely inert. It is happy. It is stable.

This is a molecule of water:
1712335295689.png

It is also pretty happy and pretty stable, but those hydrogens can be cut off. You'll notice despite the chemical formula for water be H2O, and that there are two hydrogens, that there is not a molecule of hydrogen present. Oxygen has an affinity for electrons, more so than does hydrogen, so when a hydrogen is cut off, it leaves its electron behind. This means that even if you cut BOTH hydrogens off, you could not form a molecule of hydrogen as NEITHER would have its electron, and so they would be hydrogen ions and not associate with each other.

2. Water is usually a good idea for recovery. Drinking it after exercising is probably good.
 
silveraw said:
A quick google search gave me this meta study about it: Hydrogen Water: Extra Healthy or a Hoax?—A Systematic Review

To me it reads that it kinda helps a little in less fit individuals and almost not at all in the higher trained individuals group. In the best cases the effect is very small.

What I'm curious about now is that it seems to blunt inflammation from exercise a bit. I know that the inflammatory response is part of the process of building muscle and endurance, I wonder if it is similar to ice baths. Where it helps you "recover" from exercise by basically halting the adaptive response to that exercise.
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Honestly it is a lot like anti-inflammatory medications after exercise - you don't really WANT to blunt inflammation and the inflammatory response, or you'll also blunt the adaptation.
 
Also just so I'm on the same page.

Did we make a switch from talking about lactate as an energy source to talking about that Kangen MLM water filter thingy that has the alkaline and hydrogen claims?
 
silveraw said:
A quick google search gave me this meta study about it: Hydrogen Water: Extra Healthy or a Hoax?—A Systematic Review

To me it reads that it kinda helps a little in less fit individuals and almost not at all in the higher trained individuals group. In the best cases the effect is very small.

What I'm curious about now is that it seems to blunt inflammation from exercise a bit. I know that the inflammatory response is part of the process of building muscle and endurance, I wonder if it is similar to ice baths. Where it helps you "recover" from exercise by basically halting the adaptive response to that exercise.
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silveraw said:
Also just so I'm on the same page.

Did we make a switch from talking about lactate as an energy source to talking about that Kangen MLM water filter thingy that has the alkaline and hydrogen claims?
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No, I was speaking specifically of molecular hydrogen tablets you add to distilled water to generate 8 ppm and then drink. If its aiding exercise recovery (and I'm not saying it doesn't) I'm trying to figure out how it does that and, if it does, whether you consume it before during or after.
 
Denys Carthusian said:
No, I was speaking specifically of molecular hydrogen tablets you add to distilled water to generate 8 ppm and then drink. If its aiding exercise recovery (and I'm not saying it doesn't) I'm trying to figure out how it does that and, if it does, whether you consume it before during or after.
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Have used before. I just took whenever.

 
Sorry, I just looked up Tyler Lebaron and the Molecular Hydrogen Institute and I'll start a new thread to avoid derailing the discussion here, but feel free to either jump on that new thread or fold it back into this one if anyone suddenly decides after Monday's Eclipse that they have seen the Hydrogen light.
 
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To OP
I recently came upon this post:


Could lactate have some benefit for our health and performance? Especially brain health? What is your opinion on that? (Yes, I'am educated in Strong Endurance philosophy. :) I asked the author for the scientific source of his claims but haven't received it yet.)
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Which author are you referring to?

Edit: apparently your user name isn't something that can be posted from my end..
 
All I have as a resource to understand all of this are my HS biology classes, so I'm pretty lost. I did see that other topic John K posted the other day about lactate.

Só what this means for training? There's benefits in looking for "the burn" in training? Sorry for the childish terminology, I'm not well-read on this at all
 
marlowe said:
All I have as a resource to understand all of this are my HS biology classes, so I'm pretty lost. I did see that other topic John K posted the other day about lactate.

Só what this means for training? There's benefits in looking for "the burn" in training? Sorry for the childish terminology, I'm not well-read on this at all
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The good news is you don't need to understand ANY of this to get great training sessions and see fantastic results.

If I were to summarize this for a HS class, I might try and say that lactate used to be called lactic acid and was thought to cause "the burn" and be bad, and now we understand that lactate is a great fuel that does not cause "the burn" (which seems to be caused by Hydrogen generated separately from lactate) or DOMS/delayed onset-muscle soreness (which seems to be caused by micro-trauma to the muscle fibers).

Training recommendations ... train easy, train hard, train medium. Have fun.

Also, for those interested in a very readable read, our good friend Dr. Robergs has a great open-access article:

 
John K said:
The good news is you don't need to understand ANY of this to get great training sessions and see fantastic results.

If I were to summarize this for a HS class, I might try and say that lactate used to be called lactic acid and was thought to cause "the burn" and be bad, and now we understand that lactate is a great fuel that does not cause "the burn" (which seems to be caused by Hydrogen generated separately from lactate) or DOMS/delayed onset-muscle soreness (which seems to be caused by micro-trauma to the muscle fibers).

Training recommendations ... train easy, train hard, train medium. Have fun.

Also, for those interested in a very readable read, our good friend Dr. Robergs has a great open-access article:

Click to expand...


This is an example of why this forum is awesome. Much appreciated.

I need to go through that Lebe Stark podcast with a fine-tooth comb, and read this article. This whole thing about neurons preferring lactate as a fuel got into ny mind for some reason.
 
silveraw said:
I'm not sure. Does shooting Test improve the ability to utilize lactate?
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I think I know what you're driving at. For a long time I thought steroids simply boosted your strength while doing nothing for endurance. And then, I read something about UFC Jon Jones' alleged PED tools of choice and the example that was given was running max stair sprints:

Assume your current max is 30 flights of stairs on football stadium stairs before you absolutely can't go any further. The article claimed that Jones's cycle would take him from 30 to 90 flights of stairs (triple his ceiling). If that was true, I immediately thought to myself "there's no way athletes will pass up that opportunity if its available to them."

Hill sprints to "failure" have always been my mental go to model for accumulation of waste by products in muscles and the interference with muscle contraction.
 
If I were to summarize this for a HS class, I might try and say that lactate used to be called lactic acid and was thought to cause "the burn" and be bad, and now we understand that lactate is a great fuel that does not cause "the burn" (which seems to be caused by Hydrogen generated separately from lactate) or DOMS/delayed onset-muscle soreness (which seems to be caused by micro-trauma to the muscle fibers).
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I had always assumed that the "burn", particularly if done by the legs, was what caused the growth hormone boost that triggered the anabolic effects. (I always default to hill sprints because it seems to be the easiest to demonstrate). Sounds like that was never accurate and just because lactic acid was present at the scene of the crime, didn't mean it was a perpetrator.
 
Denys Carthusian said:
I think I know what you're driving at. For a long time I thought steroids simply boosted your strength while doing nothing for endurance. And then, I read something about UFC Jon Jones' alleged PED tools of choice and the example that was given was running max stair sprints:
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Nah just a joke from an obvious test post
 

In this video, section "Lactate vs. Lactic acid" 16:38, George Brooks Ph.D. describes Lactate as a "pretty strong acid".

This topic has really sparked my interest as there is also the comment from the host, Rhonda Patrick Ph.D., in regard to the neurons preferring Lactate and the relevance of this to ADHD.
 
In my criminally layman's understanding:

Lactate really is an acid, or starts as one but the H+ ion disassociates into the surrounding fluid (mostly water). The body buffers this and it is removed as carbon dioxide by the lungs. The kidneys help buffer this as well.

The rapidity with which your breathing recovers from exertion gives a clue as to how quickly the body can dump excess H+ when required.

Relative to mirochondria, they can tolerate very low pH levels so long as the environment is also low oxygen. In fact they work faster in a low pH environment. Muscle tissue in some experiments slightly increase force potential in a reduced pH environment.

None of this is to say that tissue harm from low pH or from some related metabolite such as reactive oxygen species is not a real thing. Experiments have been done that demonstrate a volume level that cause mitochondrial dysfunction. It is a lot of work at high intensity. Other experiments involving highly conditioned endurance athletes did not observe this dysfunction.
 
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