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Other/Mixed Navigating supplements for performance

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
silveraw

silveraw

Level 9 Valued Member


I came across this good summary of how to pick and choose supplements.

Basically a surprisingly high amount of supplements (10-30%) have extra things (test boosters tend to have dangerous “male enhancement drugs” in them). That isn’t including supplements who just don’t have effective dosing of the primary “supplement”. Eg a protein powder that doesn’t have as much protein as on the label.

Supplement regulation is ad hoc. Meaning the regulatory agencies don’t test if the label is what is in the bottle. Consumers basically have to find out on their own.

Look for good third party tested products (NSF safe for sport). Don’t buy from that new supplement company that is advertising on your favorite podcast. And really creatine is the gold standard good supplement. Even that isn’t so great effect wise.

I also really like the concept of tiers. Tier 1: known effective with rare downsides. (Creatine)
Tier 2: contextually effective and effective dose common in foods. (protein powder, caffeine)
Tier 3: new and unproven either way
Tier 4: not effective
Tier 5: actively harmful

Edit: added more cliff notes.
 
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Caffeine and creatine are the extent of my usual supplements. I have used protein powder as well, but not close to a regular basis. I've never used anything else.
 
silveraw said:
And really creatine is the only good supplement.
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This is an interesting statement. He does say the protein powders are useful to hit your protein targets, which I think has more potential than even creatine... but I suppose you won't see an effect in the gym in any acute sense.

Anyways, after working both in nutritional and pharmaceutical manufacturing, Mike seems to have a pretty good grasp on how the manufacturing process works.

As for GMP, GMP is largely in regards to documentation. There is some facility standards, but MOST of what is audited is documentation. "If it isn't documented - it didn't happen!" And that statement cuts both wheys... er, I mean, ways ...
 
Antti said:
I wouldn't say that creatine is the only good supplement. Caffeine is great as well, likely better than creatine.
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I was quoting his "Tier" list criteria. Creatine being uniquely non attainable from normal food sources. Caffeine is pretty easily taken from food and is contextually good.
 
John K said:
This is an interesting statement. He does say the protein powders are useful to hit your protein targets, which I think has more potential than even creatine... but I suppose you won't see an effect in the gym in any acute sense.

Anyways, after working both in nutritional and pharmaceutical manufacturing, Mike seems to have a pretty good grasp on how the manufacturing process works.

As for GMP, GMP is largely in regards to documentation. There is some facility standards, but MOST of what is audited is documentation. "If it isn't documented - it didn't happen!" And that statement cuts both wheys... er, I mean, ways ...
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Yeah, I kind of took that the GMP is ok, but reputable third party post manufacturing testing is better, and even better is just not taking supplements that probably don't do anything and greatly limiting the number of ones you take.
 
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TedM said:
Any votes for magnesium?
Or collagen peptides?
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I'd assume that they would be tier 2 since they are both easily effectively dosed from dietary sources. Collagen peptides might be tier 3 or 4, I haven't really kept up on what the current effectiveness of it is. I know that collagen isn't exactly a high quality source of protein. And there was that issue with lead showing up in it recently.
 
silveraw said:
Creatine being uniquely non attainable from normal food sources.
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?? I haven't watched the video, but..... creatine is found in all kinds of meats. I've even seen the argument made that if you eat a lot of red meat, you might not benefit as much from creatine supplementation.

TedM said:
Any votes for magnesium?
Or collagen peptides?
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Magnesium, definitely. Be sure to research what form might benefit you best. I believe that different forms are used differently by the body. For instance, magnesium oxide is not as well absorbed, and thus is used kind of like a laxative.

Collagen peptides, I'm not sure. I haven't looked at research in a while, but I have seen the argument made that since collagen is made from amino acids, there's no reason that you would need a collagen supplement if you are getting enough dietaty protein. Again, though, I haven't seen current research on it.

Personally, I use protein powder because it helps me meet protein goals with a busy schedule. I have been using creatine because I have heard it can also help with mental focus. Not sure how much it benefits me, though, as I already regularly eat red meat.

If anyone is worried about ingredients being snuck in, just get "all natural" brands. This isn't a plug for the company, but my day job for years has been at Natural Grocers (in the USA). They are extremely picky about what products they will carry, so you can search their site for natural supplements to see what options are out there. You don't have to buy through them; it's just that it will show some of the cleaner brands (to my knowledge).
 
bluejeff said:
haven't watched the video, but..... creatine is found in all kinds of meats. I've even seen the argument made that if you eat a lot of red meat, you might not benefit as much from creatine supplementation.
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At “effective doses” you would need to eat a pretty unique diet to get that much red meat.

Something like 5-10lbs a day to get to the dose of 5g creatine.
 
silveraw said:
I was quoting his "Tier" list criteria. Creatine being uniquely non attainable from normal food sources. Caffeine is pretty easily taken from food and is contextually good.
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silveraw said:
At “effective doses” you would need to eat a pretty unique diet to get that much red meat.

Something like 5-10lbs a day to get to the dose of 5g creatine.
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Like @bluejeff posted, animals is where it's at.

I think a couple of pounds a day should get you to 5g.

I eat that comfortably each day to fill my need for protein.

I've always felt I'm a non responder to supplemental creatine. I believe it's due to my diet.
 
I am trying to lose ~ 10 pounds with the help of a dietician to drop to 0.5 waist to height ratio.

I use VitaminD regularly, other than that only during this “cut” phase I have a daily serving of whey protein, and creatine to help me preserve muscle, if they help so… I also am running BTS3 (much more help than whey or creatine to preserve muscle IMHO) but I continue to keep my Swing and TGU practice sessions in off days.

If ones blood panel is not indicating a gap, if one does not have clear symptoms or unless prescribed by a doctor, I believe one who has a healthy diet is better off by putting as less pills or anything manufactured in a facility as he can put in to his body.
 
bluejeff said:
Collagen peptides, I'm not sure. I haven't looked at research in a while, but I have seen the argument made that since collagen is made from amino acids, there's no reason that you would need a collagen supplement if you are getting enough dietaty protein. Again, though, I haven't seen current research on it.
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A younger colleague (early 40’s) who does a good bit of strenuous rucking said it helped him with "knee pain". That's why I mentioned it. I haven't tried it myself yet.

I believe I had a reaction to Red Yeast Rice which I started taking for cholesterol reduction. I stopped magnesium citrate also at the time to try and isolate exactly what happened...

To be sure about a lot of stuff in this category - from creatine to cocoa powder and Ceylon cinnamon ( for anti-inflammatory effects, etc.) - I'm really taking it on faith that it's good for me. I don't know how to measure it.

(Which is why I never started with turmeric... I just hate the taste and didn't know if it was worth the pain.)
 
Antti said:
Like @bluejeff posted, animals is where it's at.

I think a couple of pounds a day should get you to 5g.

I eat that comfortably each day to fill my need for protein.

I've always felt I'm a non responder to supplemental creatine. I believe it's due to my diet.
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I’m never sure if you’re f****** with me.

You eat 5 thousand calories a day in just red meat?

And don’t think that’s a bit of an outlier?
 
silveraw said:
I’m never sure if you’re f****** with me.

You eat 5 thousand calories a day in just red meat?

And don’t think that’s a bit of an outlier?
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Where'd you get the five thousand calories in red meat?

First of all, creatine is in all kind of animal foods, whether it's beef, chicken, herring, cheese, or whatever. The amounts are not the same, of course, like with the cheese having the least of these, and the herring the most, if I remember correctly.

Now, two pounds of beef has a bit over 100kcal, say 110, in 100g. So, two pounds puts it out at 1000kcal.

As a middle aged man looking to lose fat and training a lot, I look for 2g protein a kilo of bodyweight, so I need, say, 200g of protein. Where better to get it than animals? Two pounds and 1000kcal gets me practically to 200g.
 
Antti said:
Where'd you get the five thousand calories in red meat?
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To get the 5g of creatine… you quoted a statement saying that to get 5g of creatine from beef you need to eat 5-10lbs of it a day. You then said “I get that from diet”.

5lb beef is roughly 5k calories. I guess herring would only be half that a day to hit the creatine numbers though. But still 1kg of fish a day… I’m having flashbacks to fishing trips where we had to eat the days catch every day for a week.

I think you were trying to say you are a non responder rather than you get 5g from diet.
 
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