Questions about PTTP

godjira1

Triple-Digit Post Count
good point about judo focussing on power as the sport requires it. there are a couple of national judoka who do some sessions at my bjj gym just to brush up their newaza - they do a lot of power cleans or power clean+jerk. Having said that, they are already pretty strong to start with so I imagine you need a good strength base to "convert" to power if that makes sense. For upper body work they do bench presses, pullups/chinups and rope climbs.
 

Kozushi

More than 2500 posts
good point about judo focussing on power as the sport requires it. there are a couple of national judoka who do some sessions at my bjj gym just to brush up their newaza - they do a lot of power cleans or power clean+jerk. Having said that, they are already pretty strong to start with so I imagine you need a good strength base to "convert" to power if that makes sense. For upper body work they do bench presses, pullups/chinups and rope climbs.
In my experience in newaza and BJJ (and I've competed BJJ too, so I'm speaking from a wee bit of legit experience there) slow strength is very important too, not just power. Definitely, in my amateurish opinion, slow strength is helpful for judo standup as well, but you're developing your sport specific strength primarily through the sport itself.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
I imagine you need a good strength base to "convert" to power
The Foundation of Power

Strength is the foundation on which Power is built.

Initially increasing Strength, increases Power.

Also, to increase Power, Strength needs to be increased.

The Caveat of Strength Training

There is some truth to, "Lifting heavy weight make you slow". If you only perform heavy Strength Training exercises, you Power and Speed will decrease.

Conjugate Training

A Training Program that implement Power and Strength Training elicits a greater increase in both; a synergistic effect occurs.

there are a couple of national judoka who do some sessions at my bjj gym just to brush up their newaza - they do a lot of power cleans or power clean+jerk.
Olympic Movements

The Olympic Training Exercises are Power Movements. Thus, they will increase Power.

For upper body work they do bench presses, pullups/chinups and rope climbs.
Upper Body

The Bench Press, Pullups/Chins and Rope Climbing are Strength Exercises.

However, some Power can be developed with the Bench Press by dropping the load down to around 48 to 62% of your 1 Repetition Max. Driving the weight up as hard and fast as you can, Compensatory Acceleration.

The same applies applies to developing some Power with Pullups/Chins via Band Assisted Pullups. Another alternative would be Lat Pulldowns or Rows with a moderate load, with the focus being on pulling as hard and fast as you can, Compensatory Acceleration.

Power Rules

Power Rules in Judo and most sports. Strength is important but to a lesser degree.

Kenny Croxdale
 

Kozushi

More than 2500 posts
I remember two other points of wisdom from my talk with my coach last night which are that lifting weights increases your testosterone levels which affect everything you do in judo and make you bigger and more aggressive in general, and that even though the "high pull" movement that he considers about the only one necessary to do does not mimic most judo movements (although a good number of them) it's the fact that your muscles are developing "power fibre" that makes the exercise valuable, and the "power fibre" is multivalent, not restricted to the specific movement of the high pull.

Okay, so between Kenny and my coach I think I have got it!
 

Kozushi

More than 2500 posts
They teach you to _resist_ torque-ing the spine, which is protective.

-S-
Yes, certainly, and there is still plenty of power to develop with 1h swings. Also 1h swings tone up far more muscles than 2h swings which leave the belly hanging out.
I did my 100 S&S swings 2h 40kg last night (in sets of 30, 20, 5X10) to prime myself up for today's judo and yes, I did feel a positive difference in my performance, due to training the movement pattern (since 1 day isn't going to do much other than that.) I feel a bit frustrated trying to go far in two disciplines at once: judo and S&S. I want to follow S&S by the book and judo by the book too. In any case the 2h heavy swing trains exactly the number one best hip block pattern to stop your opponent from throwing you so it makes you pretty much like a tank against their attacks. I also want to get my SFI. I'm putting a fair bit of effort both into S&S and judo and my frustration isn't something anyone else here can understand. Hahaha. That's life. :)
 

Kozushi

More than 2500 posts
What do you mean by this?
Your core gets sucked in with 1h swings by hitting lots of anti-twist mucles. 2h swings leave them lax and make you look fat. In my experience, and I think according to the book also. 2h swings miss many muscles through the core, or at least don`t tense them as much.
 

Steve Freides

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Senior Certified Instructor
Your core gets sucked in with 1h swings by hitting lots of anti-twist mucles. 2h swings leave them lax and make you look fat. In my experience, and I think according to the book also. 2h swings miss many muscles through the core, or at least don`t tense them as much.
Properly done two-hand swings, with the "standing plank" at the top, will absolutely involve your abs, but you're right about the anti-rotational muscles not being worked. Still, try some really heavy 2h swings and you'll notice that a _lot_ is working.

-S-
 

Antti

More than 2500 posts
Your core gets sucked in with 1h swings by hitting lots of anti-twist mucles. 2h swings leave them lax and make you look fat. In my experience, and I think according to the book also. 2h swings miss many muscles through the core, or at least don`t tense them as much.
I too think that the demands of the swings are a bit different, anti-rotation etc. But personally I try to use the abs in the same way no matter the swing. And as an aside I never suck them in, but the opposite.
 

Anna C

More than 5000 posts
Elite Certified Instructor
Brace. Brace the abs. Not lax, not sucked in, not pushed out. Braced like you're about to get punched or hit in the stomach. They should be working plenty hard for 2H swings as well as 1H swings. And power breath for that extra contraction and pressurization on the exertion of the explosive hip extension.
 

Kozushi

More than 2500 posts
Brace. Brace the abs. Not lax, not sucked in, not pushed out. Braced like you're about to get punched or hit in the stomach. They should be working plenty hard for 2H swings as well as 1H swings. And power breath for that extra contraction and pressurization on the exertion of the explosive hip extension.
The abs aren't what I'm worried about. The abs are indeed worked, but the sides of the trunk and the little weird muscles through the ribs and in spots along the spine, all those weird little muscles that probably have no names, those ones, they aren't getting much from 2h swings and so your belly hangs out if you're not also doing a good number of 1 handed swings.

However, for judo, the full power 2h swings have seemed to in my past 3-4 years experience with S&S been by far the better of the two for sport specificity. But body sculpting and GPP don't revolve around judo.

2h swings let your belly hang out, I don't mean during the swings, but in terms of physique development.
 

Chrisdavisjr

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
@Kozushi If your 2H swings are heavy enough, you'll hit pretty much all of the muscles in your midsection (there's a reason that plate-loadable KB handles are also known as 'core blasters'). You'll not build as much anti-rotational strength as with 1H swings, but you'll be working hard and burning a heap of calories to boot.
 

Kozushi

More than 2500 posts
@Kozushi If your 2H swings are heavy enough, you'll hit pretty much all of the muscles in your midsection (there's a reason that plate-loadable KB handles are also known as 'core blasters'). You'll not build as much anti-rotational strength as with 1H swings, but you'll be working hard and burning a heap of calories to boot.
There is no doubt in this judoka's mind that 2h swings are extremely important for judo power and technique training. I don't do Olympic lifts, so maybe they're better, I can't say. As for 1h swings, they are not hard enough somehow. I'm actually starting to think, "Hey, I'm past Simple in S&S, and I'm also a judoka, so I've got to start thinking about modifying S&S to my own situation" which might entail making the standard workout for me 100 swings with the 40 or 48 followed by the TGUs, and to do 1h swings as a kind of extra or for light days.

Judo is wrestling while gripping the opponent's shirt, for those who don't know. The shirt makes a lot more moves possible and the sport gets a lot more interesting and fun (we think) with the shirt involved, and probably a lot closer to a self-defence situation where people tend to be wearing clothes.
 

Kozushi

More than 2500 posts
Attaboy, Kozushi.
:)

2h swings generate more power, strength, endurance everything over 1h swings. Again, I think preference for 1 handed moves with lighter weights is more due to simply not having access to heavier 2 handed equipment than to anything else. I'll say the same for presses. A guy who presses 2 kettebells at the same time (or a twice as heavy barbell) is stronger than someone who only presses one. It's just common sense.

Time to take my game further.

If I'm doing the heavier 2h swings, then I'll be inclined to keep upping my embarassingly light 370lbs deadlift.

But right now, a long walk. I've been getting fat stewing over how I should change my program.
 

Kozushi

More than 2500 posts
So, I think my plan for the near future is to do a mixture of 2h swings with a heavier bell and lighter 1h swings for the swing part of S&S, and the program can be damned a bit, hahaha. I'm a judoka so power counts, and 2h swings are much better for power. So, I'll give myself the freedom to mix it up for the swings, but stick to the getups as per normal with the 40kg or 48kg depending on how I feel. I still feel like a useless twit not being able to get to doing S&S consistently with the 48 by now (getups I can do though, not swings.) When I'm finding the 48 light for 2h swings I'll look into the T-bar stuff or whatever it's called. I'll keep at the deadlift.
 
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