Kettlebell Snatch form check
- Thread starter Paltreaux11
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Steve W.
Level 8 Valued Member
@Paltreaux11,
Looks basically solid.
Some things to experiment with:,
--Try keeping your arm down and your upper arm connected to your body a little longer. A cue I use is "Arm down!" as my hips are extending. You want to get the most power transfer possible from your hips, and when you start pulling with your arm before your hips are fully extended, you lose some of that hip power. It's a natural tendency to pull up because the whole intention is to get the bell UP. But if you are more patient in keeping the arm down, you get more power from your hips and the bell will fly. You want to launch it to lockout with hip power, not pull it up with arm power.
--Try pulling your elbow in a little quicker on the drop and getting your upper arm connected to your body sooner. This will better enable you to absorb the force of the drop with your hips as it is falling, and not have as much of the force hit abruptly at the bottom.
--Try not standing up so straight when you initiate the drop. You're just dropping the bell in front of you, and even following it down by starting to hinge forward while the bell is only halfway down. This will cause the force of the bell to hit more abruptly at the bottom, yank harder than necessary on your grip, shoulder and back, and make it harder to sweep the bell into a nice backswing.
Think about counterbalancing the drop by leaning your shoulders back. Don't let your shoulders come forward and down until you get your elbow in and upper arm connected to your torso. "Make space for the bell" by getting your head and shoulders back out of the way to initiate the drop. I think of "making a V" as I initiate the drop. The point at the bottom of the V is your feet. One side of the V is your torso, and the other side of the V is path of the bell at the top of the drop. Make space for the bell, and get your elbow in quickly, then let the bell pull you to vertical and then into the hinge, instead of starting vertical and letting the bell pull you forward. This helps smooth out the force of the drop, lets you drop the bell in a more vertical path, and gives you a better angle to sweep the bell into the backswing.
Interestingly, it looks like you do some of this already to an extent, but much more on your left side. For instance if you watch the video on .5 or .25 speed and use the window in the background as a point of reference, you do tend to move your head and shoulders back to initiate the drop, but much less on the right side. BTW, I had to edit the 32kg video URL to make it a regular YouTube video and not a short in order to watch it at slow speed. Are you left-handed and better coordinated on that side, or right-handed and therefore better able to muscle through the lift on that side?
One thing you do that makes me very happy is you clearly fixate the bell overhead and don't cheat the lockout. A fast cadence can have it's place, but exaggerated touch-and-go lockouts without any clear fixation are one of my pet peeves.
Looks basically solid.
Some things to experiment with:,
--Try keeping your arm down and your upper arm connected to your body a little longer. A cue I use is "Arm down!" as my hips are extending. You want to get the most power transfer possible from your hips, and when you start pulling with your arm before your hips are fully extended, you lose some of that hip power. It's a natural tendency to pull up because the whole intention is to get the bell UP. But if you are more patient in keeping the arm down, you get more power from your hips and the bell will fly. You want to launch it to lockout with hip power, not pull it up with arm power.
--Try pulling your elbow in a little quicker on the drop and getting your upper arm connected to your body sooner. This will better enable you to absorb the force of the drop with your hips as it is falling, and not have as much of the force hit abruptly at the bottom.
--Try not standing up so straight when you initiate the drop. You're just dropping the bell in front of you, and even following it down by starting to hinge forward while the bell is only halfway down. This will cause the force of the bell to hit more abruptly at the bottom, yank harder than necessary on your grip, shoulder and back, and make it harder to sweep the bell into a nice backswing.
Think about counterbalancing the drop by leaning your shoulders back. Don't let your shoulders come forward and down until you get your elbow in and upper arm connected to your torso. "Make space for the bell" by getting your head and shoulders back out of the way to initiate the drop. I think of "making a V" as I initiate the drop. The point at the bottom of the V is your feet. One side of the V is your torso, and the other side of the V is path of the bell at the top of the drop. Make space for the bell, and get your elbow in quickly, then let the bell pull you to vertical and then into the hinge, instead of starting vertical and letting the bell pull you forward. This helps smooth out the force of the drop, lets you drop the bell in a more vertical path, and gives you a better angle to sweep the bell into the backswing.
Interestingly, it looks like you do some of this already to an extent, but much more on your left side. For instance if you watch the video on .5 or .25 speed and use the window in the background as a point of reference, you do tend to move your head and shoulders back to initiate the drop, but much less on the right side. BTW, I had to edit the 32kg video URL to make it a regular YouTube video and not a short in order to watch it at slow speed. Are you left-handed and better coordinated on that side, or right-handed and therefore better able to muscle through the lift on that side?
One thing you do that makes me very happy is you clearly fixate the bell overhead and don't cheat the lockout. A fast cadence can have it's place, but exaggerated touch-and-go lockouts without any clear fixation are one of my pet peeves.
Paltreaux11
Level 4 Valued Member
Thanks for the detailed analysis. I apologize about the YouTube short. I’m not sure how I did that. Must not have been paying attention.
I am right handed actually so it’s kind of funny to hear I’m initiating the drop better with my left hand.
I feel like the things you mentioned were the main issues I felt like I had with my technique, but couldn’t really find ways to mitigate them. Do you think that by using the “arm down” cue that that will also help eliminate the slight side to side hip gyration that I get? I’ve been trying to eliminate that and I think it stems from pulling with my shoulder and arm. I feel like through practicing I have had reps where I use hip drive to power the bell up and it feels great but I just couldn’t figure out how I did it.
The drop has always been an issue for me. I think I found a good video showing what you’re explaining Here.
Thanks again for the honest critique and I’m looking forward to practicing this.
Good thing I brought my 24kg to the office with me…
I am right handed actually so it’s kind of funny to hear I’m initiating the drop better with my left hand.
I feel like the things you mentioned were the main issues I felt like I had with my technique, but couldn’t really find ways to mitigate them. Do you think that by using the “arm down” cue that that will also help eliminate the slight side to side hip gyration that I get? I’ve been trying to eliminate that and I think it stems from pulling with my shoulder and arm. I feel like through practicing I have had reps where I use hip drive to power the bell up and it feels great but I just couldn’t figure out how I did it.
The drop has always been an issue for me. I think I found a good video showing what you’re explaining Here.
Thanks again for the honest critique and I’m looking forward to practicing this.
Good thing I brought my 24kg to the office with me…
Let's work on just one detail
I'd be very happy if you can keep your knees from shaking....
Overall it's a good start
I'd be very happy if you can keep your knees from shaking....
Overall it's a good start
Can you tell us how to do that? Annoying YouTube feature
It's not you, it's YouTube. Even previously uploaded normal videos now show up as shorts. Can't seem to control it on our end.
Great work, and great advice above!
A little more patience in the bottom and really loading the hinge should help, as well.
I agree -- a great habit to develop prior to "sprinting" snatches.
It's a bit helpful, but so much kettlebell sport style there... I feel like sticking with hardstyle is what you're aiming for.
(BTW you have a tiny bit of forward knee motion on the upswing, which is kettelbell sport style and "not" hardstyle.... just something to be aware of if you are truly aiming for hardstyle.)
Steve W.
Level 8 Valued Member
Steve W.
Level 8 Valued Member
Yes, he does make the points about not casting the bell forward and initiating the drop by moving the shoulders back. However, he connects moving the shoulders back specifically to the corkscrew drop technique, and I think it applies just as well to a more over the top technique.
One thing I like about the video is he makes a distinction between the straight hinge hip action in hard style and the pendulum hip action in GS. To me, that's the most essential defining difference between the techniques. People tend to fixate on corkscrew vs over the top as the difference between hard style and GS, but he mentions using the corkscrew with either type of hip hinge. IMO, a corkscrew drop with a hard style hinge is still legit hard style, although you rarely see it and I don't know how "officially" approved it is. But for now, I wouldn't worry about the corkscrew at all.
Experimenting with different variations to zero in on what works best is a big part of the process, and something that makes training more mindful, challenging, and fun. This can and should be a never-ending process. No matter how much experience you have or how consistent your form is, you'll always have some variation from rep to rep, set to set, and day to day. That will mostly give you feedback on what NOT to do. But you'll also have reps that are happy accidents that just feel great, where the bell almost flies up by itself. If you're paying attention, you can try to reverse engineer those reps and replicate them, then try to replicate them consistently. Rinse and repeat forever.
Even as you are refining your groove, continue to test out variations and be open to new discoveries.
I still look at each rep as an experiment and learning experience. The ideas that "perfect practice makes perfect" or that "practice makes permanent" make no sense to me. I'm not sure what "perfect practice" means, since I'm pretty confident I've never done anything perfectly. And my experience and philosophy is that practice should facilitate evolution, not lead to stagnation.
Mindful imperfect practice makes progress.
Paltreaux11
Level 4 Valued Member
This is all great stuff. Thank you so much for your time and input.
Paltreaux11
Level 4 Valued Member
I was bringing the knees forward a bit on purpose after watching this video on Instagram Here. Are you saying this is not generally allowed in the hardstyle snatch?
Correct. From the SFG swing standards, "There is no forward knee movement (increasing ankle dorsiflexion) on the upswing." And from the SFG snatch standards, "All the points that apply to the swing, minus the straight-arm requirement... and the float requirement".
Looks to me like what Hannah is showing that link is that your starting and hinge position will be relatively more knees forward for the dead clean or dead snatch, as compared with your hinge for the swing... not that your knees will actually move in that way during the movement. Hope that makes sense...
Paltreaux11
Level 4 Valued Member
Yes thank you for clarifying.
Steve W.
Level 8 Valued Member
Yes, key word here is upswing. In the hard style hinge, your knees can come forward a bit on the hinge (downswing), but not move forward on the upswing. In hard style, the downswing is all flexion: hips, knees, ankles (dorsiflexion). The upswing is all extension: hips, knees, ankles (plantarflexion).
In the GS pendulum, the knees straighten and hips raise at the end of the downswing, and then the knees rebend on the upswing. This rebending is considered a fault in hard style. As I mentioned above, IMO this difference in hinge style is the essential defining difference between hard style and GS.
I agree with @Anna C, in the video she is making a distinction between the hinge position in the hard style snatch or clean vs. the hard style swing, and she's talking about the knee position on the downswing into the hinge.
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