The Case for a High-Carb/Low-Fat Diet

LukeV

More than 300 posts
I can say with confidence that I've been on every diet that can be googled. My best results have come from low carb (<50g daily) or low fat (<15% calories) diets. The results have been comparable, over all timescales. I have felt mentally sharp, fit and strong on both. Both approaches lead to higher protein intake, that seems to me to be significant.

I would add that a focus on protein, carbs and fats misses the role alcohol appears to play in weight management over and above its calorific impact. I am a daily drinker and anything more than a few beers, couple of glasses of wine (approx 40g alcohol) appears to put the brakes on weight loss even when the calories are compensated for.
 
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kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
...for performance, more carbs, absolutely if speed, power is a thing,
Phosphagen Energy System Training

Limit Strength, Power and Speed are trained and developed via the Phosphagen Energy System. ATP is the energy source during intensive effort.

The Phosphagen Energy System's top end of effort is 30 seconds. However, the majority of ATP is depleted in 15 seconds or less.

Neither Glucose nor Ketones are the primary energy source. Thus, "More Carbs" aren't necessary.

Kenny Croxdale
 

Sean M

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
@kennycro@@aol.com Thoughts on the role of carbs in recovery? If not used for the exercise themselves, how would one’s recovery go with low-carb on Tuesday (training Monday and Wednesday) compared to a high-carb recovery day?
 

kennycro@@aol.com

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I have no interest in low carb "diets" or so called implementing them correctly.
It is hard to succeed at anything if you don't know how to correctly execute it.

I implemented them correctly...
This contracts your previous statement that you don't really know or want to know how to implement it to stating that you know. No sense in pursuing this any further.

Kenny Croxdale
 

ali

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Neither Glucose nor Ketones are the primary energy source. Thus, "More Carbs" aren't necessary.
Sure. Try running a 200, even 100.

Yes, of course you can do anything without carbs including surviving.
Theoretically you can sprint or do any sport without carbs. You'll just be slow. Great.

Metabolic flexibility , right?
I'm just pro food. Carbs are good and they are absolutely not a necessary evil.
I do alactic sprints, mostly. And I eat carbs. So there.
What is wrong with using glucose aerobically, if indeed I am? And what's wrong with fuelling maximum velocity with glucose?
I doubt I use that much glycogen, no way near depletion anyway. A couple bananas covers it. And no way am I watching my macros, couldn't care less, I just eat and enjoy.
So what? What's the big deal?
 

North Coast Miller

More than 2500 posts
Phosphagen Energy System Training

Limit Strength, Power and Speed are trained and developed via the Phosphagen Energy System. ATP is the energy source during intensive effort.

The Phosphagen Energy System's top end of effort is 30 seconds. However, the majority of ATP is depleted in 15 seconds or less.

Neither Glucose nor Ketones are the primary energy source. Thus, "More Carbs" aren't necessary.

Kenny Croxdale
Recharge of ATP via PCr peaks in a few seconds and drops, crossing anaerobic glycolysis recharge of ATP at about 12-15 seconds. Most of my set lengths are 40-80 seconds.

If not supplied by glucose and pyruvate, they have to come from ketones and palmitate. All good, but the lipid sources are a slower reaction to recharge ATP compared to glucose. Presumably even at the mitochondrial level when it comes to restoring PCr stores.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
@kennycro@@aol.com Thoughts on the role of carbs in recovery? If not used for the exercise themselves, how would one’s recovery go with low-carb on Tuesday (training Monday and Wednesday) compared to a high-carb recovery day?
The Role of Carbohydrates In Recovery

It depends on numerous factors.

1) The sport or activity that you are performing. Which energy system is predominately used?

2) The amount of recover time you have before the next training session, hours or days.

3) Your present diet. Are you Glucose Dependent, Keto Adapted, or Metabolically Flexible?

The Energy System Sports/Activity

Let me reiterate what I have commented on is several previous post...

1) Phosphagen Energy System: ATP (Adenosine Triphosphate) drive energy production; not Glucose nor Ketones.

2) Glycolytic Energy System: Glucose driven energy production. A higher Carbohydrate Diet is necessary.

3) Oxidative Energy System: A greater percentage of body fat/ketones is utilized to produce energy. The irony is that research convinced Endurance Athletes decade ago, "Carb Loading" is mandatory. That dogma continues to be perpetuated.

High Carbohydrate Diets make you "Glucose Dependent"; efficient at using Glucose but not body fat/ketones.

The Ketogenic Diet has demonstrated to be an effective method for Endurance Athletes to improve performance; burning ketones while preserving glucose, rather than "Bonking" (running out of glucose).

The Ketogenic Diet makes you efficient at burning body fat/Ketones but not at using Glucose.

The more effective diet for Endurance Athletes appear to be...

Intermittent Fasting

As per Dr Mike T. Nelson's research, Intermittent Fasting elicits "Metabolic Flexibility". You become efficient at utilizing Glucose or Ketones, dependent on the activity.

Thus, Intermittent Fasting allow Endurance Athletes to utilize more body fat/Ketones; perserving Glucose sprints at the end of the race.

Low Carbohydrate Tuesdays

For what purpose?

Kenny Croxdale
 

ali

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
If you listen to the SF podcast, the most recent one with Derek Toshner you may find interesting. Towards the end a brief discussion on nutrition and Derek favours a higher carb content., by his reckoning when training 50% of calories in and 40% when not training so hard. As always, to be clear, higher quality carb content.
@kennycro@@aol.com.. ...Derek outlines why he eats the way he does. He's doing just fine.
 

Bret S.

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
Thus, Intermittent Fasting allow Endurance Athletes to utilize more body fat/Ketones; perserving Glucose sprints at the end of the race.
VWC is high intensity training lasting 40 mins on the long side, as a rule I'm doing 20-30 min sessions mostly, in my other training I go for ladders, clusters and the like which I would consider medium intensity. My sessions last 1.25 hrs sometimes, so considering I use IF daily for 16 to 19 hrs and train while fasted I'm using fat for fuel mostly? I know muscle glycogen stores are substantial so how do you know which system is in use during sessions like mine? From what I've read it's difficult to run glycogen stores down if you want to.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Theoretically you can sprint or do any sport without carbs. You'll just be slow. Great.
Not Quite

A Ketogenic Diet Athlete isn't going to lose time in a sprint. It does't work that way.

What is wrong with using glucose aerobically, if indeed I am?
Phospshagen Energy System Sports/Activities

ATP is the is the primary energy source; not Glucose or Ketones.

That means that it doesn't matter if you are a High Carbohydrate Diet or a ultra low Ketogenic Diet for Phosphagen Energy System Sports/Activities.

Carbs are good and they are absolutely not a necessary evil.
Carbohydrates

I never stated "Carbohydrates are evil". Your reading more into my post than I stated.

And what's wrong with fuelling maximum velocity with glucose?
Nothing

Since ATP is the energy system driving Limit Strength, Power and Speed, neither a High Carbohydrate nor Ketogenic Diet really impact performance.

Kenny Croxdale
 

Sean M

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
What is high? For the purposes of this discussion. ...
I'm not glucose dependent by the way. It isn't a given, for everyone, all the time , everywhere.
That’s what I’m wondering. The article says 1-2g per pound of bodyweight, with at least 50g fiber. So 150g net carbs on the low end...which is what Mark Sisson (who advocated low-carb and now is promoting keto) says is about right. So one man’s low carb is another man’s high carb (though low end of the range).

It’s also confounded by the fact we don’t eat macros in isolation. Most often we eat carbs with sugar (think donut), or carbs with fat (toast with butter).

Carbs are also almost too broad a category: 200g a day net of fiber of broccoli and cauliflower is going to have a different effect on performance and recovery than 200g of French baguette, right?
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
What is high? For the purposes of this discussion. ...
Good point. There a variety of definition.

I'm not glucose dependent by the way.
How did you come to that conclusion?

It isn't a given, for everyone, all the time , everywhere.
I never said it was. However, the majority of us are more Alike that Dis-Alike. That why training program, diets, medications, etc usually work for the average population; the "Law of Large Numbers".

A small minority of individual fall into being Non-Responders or Super Responders.

Kenny Croxdale
 

Jeff Roark

Triple-Digit Post Count
It is hard to succeed at anything if you don't know how to correctly execute it.



This contracts your previous statement that you don't really know or want to know how to implement it to stating that you know. No sense in pursuing this any further.

Kenny Croxdale
I said "so called implementing them correctly". I followed the certain plans that I used as detailed. Its simply not for me and I have no desire for low carb. I am happy with the way I eat. So yes, no sense in pursuing it one step further in regards to me. Others, maybe.

I did the paleo plan for nearly a year. During this time I only ate meat, eggs, butter, mct oil, coconut oil and green veggies. I ate no fruits or any grains. I guess the closest I came to having heavier carbs is when I ate some occasional carrots, which was not often. I started off on this plan eating several times per day, but then fell into the intermittent fasting deal with it, you know, to make it more primal like my paleo ancestors. That made things much worse than they already were. Yes, I was lean, blood veins in my lower stomach lean, but I was completely miserable in all ways. I was constantly cold and irritable as could be. I dreaded going to the toilet. My workouts completely sucked because after a few sets I was toast. If I wasn't this metabolically adapted as they after this time period, it wasn't going to happen.

My blood work did not improve during this time period as promised it would. It actually got much worse with higher fasted glucose readings along with elevated liver enzymes. Now, with my eating plan that I typed above, all my blood work in at normal again. Everything in the normal ranges.
 
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ali

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How did you come to that conclusion?
Glucose dependence......to be honest, I don't know. Partly because I'm not sure exactly what it means. What I think it means is 'can I go about my daily life without being permanently attached to a glucose IV feed or the constant feeding and need for glucose'.....then yes. I do not wake up to eat a bowl of marshmallows and candy floss. Or even a banana. I can and do often not eat, more circumstantial than any planned dietary thing. I am however food dependent, and do eat carbohydrates. Sometimes a lot, sometimes a little. Today I had an omelette with spring onion and spinach for breakfast. If I didn't have spring onion and spinach on hand, it would have been an omelette. I really didn't need the spinach nor spring onion to get me going for the day. But sometimes though I have fruit for breakfast.
I could, I suppose, be glucose dependent because I don't know if the protein in the egg was utilised for glucose metabolism. I've yet to eat anything else, back from my dog walk (8K) I'm planning dinner - couple bits of steak in a garlic and herb cream sauce, baked potato, roasted cherry tomatoes, roasted yellow pepper and spinach. Strawberries and double cream for dessert. Good telly drama on later, a bar of chocolate will go down well. My name is on it. Not training today.
Am I glucose dependent? Am I in energy balance? No idea.
I'll find out tomorrow, I may eat more or less, we'll see.
Now had today been a sprint training day, all would be pretty much the same just dessert would be custard and bananas probably.
Had today been a competitive sprint, it would have been the same but with bananas, fruit and nut and milk post race. And who knows, maybe champagne? The latter, unlikely, by the way!
For non competitive sprinters it is very difficult to describe the level of fatigue after a warm up and max sprint. I ran 3 races, a couple weeks back, won my heat, didn't qualify in the next round and 2nd in a veterans final. I didn't stop eating for 3 days, mostly carbs. This season has finished and I've not sprinted for 2 weeks so my total daily food is pretty stable in comparison, as is my 'need' for glucose.
I'll willingly race a keto adapted sprinter any day of the week. Champagne for me!! I don't know any though, bit of a shame.

Overall then, I think I'm metabolically flexible and not glucose dependent for my daily living despite having a reasonably balanced - and in my opinion - healthy diet despite eating carbohydrates, sometimes higher than what some may consider to be weird these days.
 

Jeff Roark

Triple-Digit Post Count
wish I could like your post twice!
Glucose dependence......to be honest, I don't know. Partly because I'm not sure exactly what it means. What I think it means is 'can I go about my daily life without being permanently attached to a glucose IV feed or the constant feeding and need for glucose'.....then yes. I do not wake up to eat a bowl of marshmallows and candy floss. Or even a banana. I can and do often not eat, more circumstantial than any planned dietary thing. I am however food dependent, and do eat carbohydrates. Sometimes a lot, sometimes a little. Today I had an omelette with spring onion and spinach for breakfast. If I didn't have spring onion and spinach on hand, it would have been an omelette. I really didn't need the spinach nor spring onion to get me going for the day. But sometimes though I have fruit for breakfast.
I could, I suppose, be glucose dependent because I don't know if the protein in the egg was utilised for glucose metabolism. I've yet to eat anything else, back from my dog walk (8K) I'm planning dinner - couple bits of steak in a garlic and herb cream sauce, baked potato, roasted cherry tomatoes, roasted yellow pepper and spinach. Strawberries and double cream for dessert. Good telly drama on later, a bar of chocolate will go down well. My name is on it. Not training today.
Am I glucose dependent? Am I in energy balance? No idea.
I'll find out tomorrow, I may eat more or less, we'll see.
Now had today been a sprint training day, all would be pretty much the same just dessert would be custard and bananas probably.
Had today been a competitive sprint, it would have been the same but with bananas, fruit and nut and milk post race. And who knows, maybe champagne? The latter, unlikely, by the way!
For non competitive sprinters it is very difficult to describe the level of fatigue after a warm up and max sprint. I ran 3 races, a couple weeks back, won my heat, didn't qualify in the next round and 2nd in a veterans final. I didn't stop eating for 3 days, mostly carbs. This season has finished and I've not sprinted for 2 weeks so my total daily food is pretty stable in comparison, as is my 'need' for glucose.
I'll willingly race a keto adapted sprinter any day of the week. Champagne for me!! I don't know any though, bit of a shame.

Overall then, I think I'm metabolically flexible and not glucose dependent for my daily living despite having a reasonably balanced - and in my opinion - healthy diet despite eating carbohydrates, sometimes higher than what some may consider to be weird these days.
 
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