Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
I was initially responding to @bluejeff but I found myself rambling a bit. So I decided that I might be unfairly hijacking this good discussion on hypertrophy.
So I decided to separately post this thread instead.
CRITICISMS
As far as the way Mike Mentzer built his physique, there are several thoughts I have around that.
Everything works at first. Same could be said about Mike Mentzer. He started at some point and whatever he was doing seems to have worked, at least at first. I find the claim that he merely maintained his physique on HIT training to be interesting. Forgive my ignorant curiosity but, would a man of his endeavor truly be satisfied with mere maintenance? Wouldn't he have expectations of improvement, at some level? Would he really be preaching it if he was only maintaining his physique? I don't know, but I have suspicions that he would not have been so enthusiastic if he was merely maintaining a physique.
As to the critical statement, but he built his physique with "classical bodybuilding" , there's a chronological issue. He was a convert to Arthur Jones' view at some point; not a native inhabitant. He wasn't a neophyte to body building when he met Arthur. And, I've never met a convert without a divergence from their earlier path. This doesn't necessarily have bearing on the claims that were later professed; it isn't like he tried HIT at first and it didn't work for him.
The part I understand the least is the bodybuilding competitively. I don't understand the history, scoring , or win loss records at all.
Lastly, PED use is something they all have to reckon with, I suppose. And it does put a caveat on any of their training methods being applied to an average natural joe.
And then, there's this gem I got from somewhere on this forum about me overdoing my own kettlebell press training. The more you can do, the more you can do. Which, at the time, in my case, got me into trouble with some over training in my shoulders. Too much volume. And it was echoed by @North Coast Miller 's excellent quip.
Probably true.
I think most would agree that training regimens are not equally well advised for trainees of different levels of development.
Novice ≠ intermediate ≠ advanced
However, I think that the generalities are much more valuable than the particulars.
ACCIDENTALLY AGREEING WITH ARTHUR
(Brett Contreras edition)
I am of the opinion that Brett Contreras unintentionally wrote a mini-thesis on Mike Mentzer's training philosophy when he put together this gem of an article.
bretcontreras.com
Wherein there are these beautiful graphs, which, in my eyes, every last one of them reflects the simple paradigm presented by Jones and Mentzer and practiced by Yates. That there is some extent to which one would be benefitted, in seeking hypertrophy, by digging a deep hole and waiting long enough so that your body has time to refill that hole , and then build up over the top.
And that last bit, I think, is the most important part. The patience to wait however long the body needs to develop beyond its previous state. And it is always an unknown at the outset; exactly how long it takes someone to compensate, and then, super-compensate. And the greater the intensity the longer the wait.
ACCIDENTALLY AGREEING WITH ARTHUR
( @Adachi edition )
I actually looked back at a strange episode of muscle growth I experienced when I was doing zercher squats and I gained 20 lbs over about 4 weeks. My thighs exploded. There were ripped pants, from getting into and out my sports car. Now I have to wear stretchy dockers. I went from 225 walking around to 245. And I've been that way since.
Here's what I see in my log.
4 weeks
8 sessions
2 sets
5 reps
Added 10 lbs per session
Started at 135, went to 215.
Relatively brief, relatively infrequent, relatively intense.
At the time, and until recently, I was merely bewildered by it.
Now, I think I understand it in a way. No one can know ahead of time what numbers should be appended to each part of this graph. But the general shape and form of it is undeniable.
I would submit that erring (if only slightly) on the side of more intensity, less volume, and more days off, are likely the smarter tactics.
As Mentzer would often caveat: it's not a question of whether your training for hypertrophy should be brief intense and infrequent. But it is actually a question of how brief, how intense, and how infrequent, is best for you. Investigating how that paradigm applies to me, is my latest endeavor.
I've reduced my training to 2x per week; maybe 1x per week in the future, or more days off. maybe every 5 or 6 days instead of every 3 or 4. I'm exploring the upper reaches of my abilities with 30 rep sets. I'm delaying another session when I don't feel I'm ready; taking an extra day off to recover every so often. And, so far, my chest is bigger, my arms have grown a bit. And my favorite measurement for that has been unsolicited comments from my wife and co-workers and acquaintances. Still happening every so often. So I know I'm headed in the right direction.
I would call my hypertrophy training the slowest recomposition program ever devised. I'm the same weight as when I started, and I keep looking a little different in the mirror; in a good way. I wouldn't hold a candle to an IFBB pro, but I don't expect to after just one training cycle.
BUT ... WHY ?
A bit of candidness may be in order.
Many weeks ago we were at my son's dojo, he is practicing taekwondo.
I've always trained for strength, and for ability. And I've exceeded all my own initial expectations using StrongFirst training principles and programs. At this point everything else is gravy. I've largely enjoyed continuous, uninterrupted progress for years. (Especially within the strong endurance programming). But, in that moment I was made to reckon with an important truth.
Size matters.
Other/Mixed - Hypertrophy
I was wondering what people's view and practice around hypertrophy training is. Do you hope to achieve a sufficiently amount of it just by practicing strength training regularly ? Do you practice it some months of the year, or some weeks of the year ? Or do you try to do it once or twice pr...
www.strongfirst.com
So I decided to separately post this thread instead.
Post in thread 'Hypertrophy' Other/Mixed - Hypertrophy
CRITICISMS
As far as the way Mike Mentzer built his physique, there are several thoughts I have around that.
Everything works at first. Same could be said about Mike Mentzer. He started at some point and whatever he was doing seems to have worked, at least at first. I find the claim that he merely maintained his physique on HIT training to be interesting. Forgive my ignorant curiosity but, would a man of his endeavor truly be satisfied with mere maintenance? Wouldn't he have expectations of improvement, at some level? Would he really be preaching it if he was only maintaining his physique? I don't know, but I have suspicions that he would not have been so enthusiastic if he was merely maintaining a physique.
As to the critical statement, but he built his physique with "classical bodybuilding" , there's a chronological issue. He was a convert to Arthur Jones' view at some point; not a native inhabitant. He wasn't a neophyte to body building when he met Arthur. And, I've never met a convert without a divergence from their earlier path. This doesn't necessarily have bearing on the claims that were later professed; it isn't like he tried HIT at first and it didn't work for him.
The part I understand the least is the bodybuilding competitively. I don't understand the history, scoring , or win loss records at all.
Lastly, PED use is something they all have to reckon with, I suppose. And it does put a caveat on any of their training methods being applied to an average natural joe.
And then, there's this gem I got from somewhere on this forum about me overdoing my own kettlebell press training. The more you can do, the more you can do. Which, at the time, in my case, got me into trouble with some over training in my shoulders. Too much volume. And it was echoed by @North Coast Miller 's excellent quip.
Post in thread 'Hypertrophy' Other/Mixed - Hypertrophy
Probably true.
I think most would agree that training regimens are not equally well advised for trainees of different levels of development.
Novice ≠ intermediate ≠ advanced
However, I think that the generalities are much more valuable than the particulars.
ACCIDENTALLY AGREEING WITH ARTHUR
(Brett Contreras edition)
I am of the opinion that Brett Contreras unintentionally wrote a mini-thesis on Mike Mentzer's training philosophy when he put together this gem of an article.
Your Optimal Training Frequency for the Glutes Part I: Exercise Type - Bret Contreras
How often should you train your Glutes? By: Stijn van Willigen Click HERE for part II What you’re getting yourself into: ~5000 words 15-20 minute read time Key Points 1....
bretcontreras.com
Wherein there are these beautiful graphs, which, in my eyes, every last one of them reflects the simple paradigm presented by Jones and Mentzer and practiced by Yates. That there is some extent to which one would be benefitted, in seeking hypertrophy, by digging a deep hole and waiting long enough so that your body has time to refill that hole , and then build up over the top.
And that last bit, I think, is the most important part. The patience to wait however long the body needs to develop beyond its previous state. And it is always an unknown at the outset; exactly how long it takes someone to compensate, and then, super-compensate. And the greater the intensity the longer the wait.
ACCIDENTALLY AGREEING WITH ARTHUR
( @Adachi edition )
I actually looked back at a strange episode of muscle growth I experienced when I was doing zercher squats and I gained 20 lbs over about 4 weeks. My thighs exploded. There were ripped pants, from getting into and out my sports car. Now I have to wear stretchy dockers. I went from 225 walking around to 245. And I've been that way since.
Here's what I see in my log.
4 weeks
8 sessions
2 sets
5 reps
Added 10 lbs per session
Started at 135, went to 215.
Relatively brief, relatively infrequent, relatively intense.
At the time, and until recently, I was merely bewildered by it.
Now, I think I understand it in a way. No one can know ahead of time what numbers should be appended to each part of this graph. But the general shape and form of it is undeniable.
I would submit that erring (if only slightly) on the side of more intensity, less volume, and more days off, are likely the smarter tactics.
As Mentzer would often caveat: it's not a question of whether your training for hypertrophy should be brief intense and infrequent. But it is actually a question of how brief, how intense, and how infrequent, is best for you. Investigating how that paradigm applies to me, is my latest endeavor.
I've reduced my training to 2x per week; maybe 1x per week in the future, or more days off. maybe every 5 or 6 days instead of every 3 or 4. I'm exploring the upper reaches of my abilities with 30 rep sets. I'm delaying another session when I don't feel I'm ready; taking an extra day off to recover every so often. And, so far, my chest is bigger, my arms have grown a bit. And my favorite measurement for that has been unsolicited comments from my wife and co-workers and acquaintances. Still happening every so often. So I know I'm headed in the right direction.
I would call my hypertrophy training the slowest recomposition program ever devised. I'm the same weight as when I started, and I keep looking a little different in the mirror; in a good way. I wouldn't hold a candle to an IFBB pro, but I don't expect to after just one training cycle.
BUT ... WHY ?
A bit of candidness may be in order.
Many weeks ago we were at my son's dojo, he is practicing taekwondo.
I'm sitting next to my youngest (4) when a nice man passed by us . A ~6 foot tall ~200 lbs walking talking slab of meat. Wearing a tight fitting under armor shirt, befitting all his good work. And God bless my youngest, she grabs my arm and pulls it up and says "ok daddy, ok, daddy. Make your muscles" I flex my arm . "Awwwww.... Why is it so small?". And I chuckle in pain.
I've always trained for strength, and for ability. And I've exceeded all my own initial expectations using StrongFirst training principles and programs. At this point everything else is gravy. I've largely enjoyed continuous, uninterrupted progress for years. (Especially within the strong endurance programming). But, in that moment I was made to reckon with an important truth.
Size matters.
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