Why You Should Not Be Running by Mark Rippetoe

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)

banzaiengr

Level 7 Valued Member
Here we go again, where has my internet surfing taken me this time? Mark Rippetoe is a very respected name in the strength community. So, is he talking about running performed above 70% of your max HR or is he talking about any running? Is he speaking in regard to a specific goal set such as powerlifting or O lifting? I don't know. What does the forum think?


Why You Should Not Be Running | Mark Rippetoe
 

North Coast Miller

Level 7 Valued Member
From a personal standpoint unless running is enjoyable for its own sake or you're exercising the dog I don't run more than 10 minutes. And the dog is better exercised throwing something.

As a practical matter I used to run a lot more and as long as it was combined with some resistance training there is no problem for GPP. All depends on your fitness goals.
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

Running on an easy pace (kind of MAF) can be useful in terms of bdw conditioning (if one use good shoes and proper technique). Otherwise, pretty low intensity and short time running may not have such benefits.

Some folks advise not to run the same day you lift to improve recovery.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

Antti

Level 9 Valued Member
It naturally all depends on goals. That much is implied in the text as well.

Too much running or other forms of cardio take away from your adaptation to lifting heavy weights. There is a limit to how much the body can work at once.

It is a personal issue, if this cost of adaptation is too high.

Personally, if I would enjoy running, I would run. I see no sense in doing it if I'm not chased by something scary. I do like to keep a certain standard of fitness but that is achievable by kettlebell swings in a very short time.

Also, as a last point, one can learn to run 10km in a couple of months. So basic endurance is easy to come by. I would argue, that a similar timeframe does not allow for great strength gains beyond a novice lifter. Therefore, it is more practical to concentrate most of your time on strength training and pick up on endurance training when the need arises.
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
So, is he talking about running performed above 70% of your max HR or is he talking about any running? Is he speaking in regard to a specific goal set such as powerlifting or O lifting? I don't know.
I read a few paragraphs, and find many assumptions he makes with which I don't agree, e.g.,

"And endurance exercise is directly antagonistic to strength, because an endurance adaptation occurs at the expense of strength."

That is overly simplistic in my opinion. I can't say it's outright wrong but we do many things in our lives that could arguably be said to be "directly antagonistic" to each other - sleeping and being awake come to mind. Inhaling and exhaling are another pair. Most of use on this forum appreciate the value of strength but also the value of endurance, and our perception of endurance is that we are learning to exert a lower level of strength for a longer time.

Perhaps more to the point, we consider strength to the foundational element of fitness, but nowhere do we espouse that it's the only element. If I may make a building analogy, nowhere do we say that, because we use concrete and cinder blocks for the foundation of house, we can only use those materials for portion that's above ground.

You're right, he has helped many people become stronger, but his goals are not necessarily our goals, and I think his points make a lot of sense for his intended audience. And most of us value a training plan that includes more than just long, slow distance, so on those points, I think we agree.

-S-
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
Interesting article on this same subject brought to my attention by @Danny Moore

The Interference Effect: Can you Train Strength and Endurance Concurrently?

"avoid combining hypertrophy strength training (i.e. 10+ reps) with high intensity endurance training. That’s mainly where you’ll see an interference effect. Low intensity endurance combined with hypertrophy strength training (10+ reps) is acceptable. As well, you can combine max strength training (5 reps or less) with high intensity endurance."

And from this I also infer that there would be no problem combining max strength training with low intensity endurance.

A bit of the reasoning on these combinations is briefly explained in the article.

I agree with @Steve Freides that the statement "an endurance adaptation occurs at the expense of strength" is overly simplistic. I feel like I've been successfully combining endurance activity and strength training for several years now, and the longer I do it, the better it works. Now, are there some trade-offs? Yes... for example, where I really noticed a drop-off in my bike riding was last year when I was training for the TSC. Doing heavy deadlifts working towards a max, and regularly training pull-ups which are pretty difficult strength-wise for me, and also trying to peak on a 5-minute snatch... these are already conflicting demands which left my bike riding in the dust for a bit. Even then we're just talking about a 2 mph average difference for a regular bike ride, but endurance cyclists know that much is noticeable. A couple of months later when I eased up on the other training, it came back.

Edit: As for the Rippetoe article, I don't buy it -- I tend to believe Dr. Kenneth Jay about the dangers of strength training only, with regard to heart health. Cardio is necessary for us to be healthy, IMO.
 

mprevost

Level 6 Valued Member
Here we go again, where has my internet surfing taken me this time? Mark Rippetoe is a very respected name in the strength community. So, is he talking about running performed above 70% of your max HR or is he talking about any running? Is he speaking in regard to a specific goal set such as powerlifting or O lifting? I don't know. What does the forum think?


Why You Should Not Be Running | Mark Rippetoe

Why you SHOULD be running: Training For The Apocalypse

; )
 

mprevost

Level 6 Valued Member
There is some interference effect on hypertrophy from resistance training. AMP Kinase activates a signaling cascade that can inhibit mTOR, which is a signal that turns on muscle hypertrophy. However, the amount of endurance training necessary to significantly inhibit hypertrophy varies and it takes a bit for this to happen. Generally, the recommendation is not to exceed 45 minutes, 3 times per week. But that is pretty generic guidance. Walking would result in much less AMPK signaling, so you could get away with much more. In fit individuals, endurance training results in less AMPK as well, so you get less interference. For the most part, few need to worry about this because they are not running enough. Illustration of the signaling cascade below:

upload_2017-3-27_13-22-36.png
 

Danny Moore

Level 4 Valued Member
Interesting article on this same subject brought to my attention by @Danny Moore

The Interference Effect: Can you Train Strength and Endurance Concurrently?

"avoid combining hypertrophy strength training (i.e. 10+ reps) with high intensity endurance training. That’s mainly where you’ll see an interference effect. Low intensity endurance combined with hypertrophy strength training (10+ reps) is acceptable. As well, you can combine max strength training (5 reps or less) with high intensity endurance."

And from this I also infer that there would be no problem combining max strength training with low intensity endurance.

A bit of the reasoning on these combinations is briefly explained in the article.

I agree with @Steve Freides that the statement "an endurance adaptation occurs at the expense of strength" is overly simplistic. I feel like I've been successfully combining endurance activity and strength training for several years now, and the longer I do it, the better it works. Now, are there some trade-offs? Yes... for example, where I really noticed a drop-off in my bike riding was last year when I was training for the TSC. Doing heavy deadlifts working towards a max, and regularly training pull-ups which are pretty difficult strength-wise for me, and also trying to peak on a 5-minute snatch... these are already conflicting demands which left my bike riding in the dust for a bit. Even then we're just talking about a 2 mph average difference for a regular bike ride, but endurance cyclists know that much is noticeable. A couple of months later when I eased up on the other training, it came back.

Edit: As for the Rippetoe article, I don't buy it -- I tend to believe Dr. Kenneth Jay about the dangers of strength training only, with regard to heart health. Cardio is necessary for us to be healthy, IMO.
@Anna C throw some more science into the mix.. based on a few studies applying the right dose of running each week might be the single best thing you can do for long term health benefits, for example;

Dose of Jogging and Long-Term Mortality | JACC: Journal of the American College of Cardiology

In this case a study of joggers in Copenhagen identified 1-2.5 hours a week light jogging as the sweet spot for long term health benefits (major health benefits - 70% reduction in mortality rate vs the overall population). That health benefit vanished completely for folks engaged in more intense running (either pace or duration). Light running is described as approx. 5 miles per hour.
 

ali

Level 7 Valued Member
@mprevost .....change your moniker to KingofDiagrams! Nice visual of stuff I've tried to get my head around for some time. And, nice zombie apocalypse reference.
If you don't want to run, hate running then there is no law against it. And it is so easy to pick the many negative health consequences of bad running mechanics, doing too much of it, too often and too much intensity to reinforce that view. If the only purpose of strength training is to get big and strong with eating as much food as humanly possible and sitting on your arse to allow it all too happen then that too has many negative health consequences. Running is bad is a very insular view if you are a non runner, as is the view that squatting is bad too, if you can't, won't or don't know how to squat. Running is a skill that requires a good level of body awareness and strength. Your intestines could literally fall out lifting something stupid off the floor, doing some stupid running may give you a bit of a sore knee. A lot of intense, long runs with poor form is in the same danger zone as lifting too much, too often with poor form. Both have health risks and dangers of death, no?
 

mprevost

Level 6 Valued Member
Yes I read that article Mike. One can't argue with the success Andrew Read has had training. As far as your second post; could you put that in plane english please. : }
Basically, endurance can interfere with hypertrophy but there is a dose/response effect. The dose/response effect is different with each individual. Most people will be OK with up to 45 minutes 3 X week with little or no effect on hypertrophy. As you become more fit aerobically, you can do more with little/no inhibition of hypertrophy. In a well planned build, you could probably get away with 30 miles per week of running and still put on muscle mass. I saw a kid who was running 120 miles per week do 30 pullups with a 25 pound weight vest on.

Strength/hypertrophy training does not interfere with endurance though, unless you put on too much weight.
 

william bad butt

Level 6 Valued Member
I find Rippetoes writing style humorous and I usually chuckle a little when I read his stuff. I don't mean that as an insult. I appreciate his blunt, direct tone. But if you don't agree with him you are wrong, and I understand why that is off-putting for a lot of folks.

He basically believes in "strength first" (and 2nd and 3rd and 4th, lol). Which of course means that Strongfirst probably has more in common with him than most care to admit. He is not into kettlebells or bodyweight training of course. But he has had a lot of success taking beginners, with a barbell, and getting them to a solid intermediate level of absolute strength (or beyond).

I've tried his programs and they worked for me, but they aren't easy (Texas Method). I wasn't recovering properly and switched to something else. And in terms of running, when you're following a Rippeto program it is probably impossible to run when you are squatting heavy 3 days per week!
 

mprevost

Level 6 Valued Member
Couple of other issues that are relevant. The inhibition that I described is compartmentalized. It is located in the specific muscles that undergo endurance training. So, that effect would not impact your bench press muscles if you are a runner. It would only affect your run muscles. However, there can be a global impact that is not compartmentalized. In this case, production of cortisol can lead to muscle catabolism (break down) and gluconeogenesis (in this case, making glucose from broken down muscle protein). However, this effect is only significant after about 45 minutes of running. Also, it is greatly reduced if you are carbohydrate loaded prior to the endurance exercise. See the graph below comparing sweat urea nitrogen (a marker of muscle protein breakdown) in carb loaded and depleted research subjects:
upload_2017-3-27_19-46-27.png
You can see that the carb loaded group had much lower levels of urea nitrogen so they experienced much less muscle breakdown. This also works during exercise. In this study, subjects were given glucose at about the 90 minute point. You can see that labeled CO2 production went down as soon as glucose ingestion began. The labeled CO2 is also a marker of muscle protein breakdown.
upload_2017-3-27_19-48-58.png
The take home message is adequate carbohydrates before and during the exercise session will help to prevent muscle breakdown.

Those on a ketogenic diet would be expected to have a different response. Fully adapted keto dieters would not see as much muscle protein degradation under low glucose conditions.
 

Questionfear

Level 5 Valued Member
Here's my take (and this is somewhat timely, because I went for my first run in a year this AM):

I used to run exclusively. I was, in hindsight, not very strong outside of the ability to drag my carcass long distances. I found strength training, it fit better with my goals and my schedule, and running fell by the wayside.

I ran for 20 minutes this morning, and even after a year of S&S and RoP, I felt like I'd been through a steamroller when I was finished. But I also felt really good mentally; I had to negotiate with myself for some of the long slow uphills, and it took a lot of willpower not to walk. I am very glad I ran, and my current goal is very modest-6 miles per week (2miles 3x a week), working up to around 12 miles per week (4 miles 3x a week or 3 miles 4x a week). I'm not running to train for 1/2 marathons anymore, I'm just aiming to run because there's something really relaxing and mentally freeing about a 1/2 hr to 45 minutes where the only thing that matters is relentlessly moving forwards. Outside, in rain or shine, getting air and experiencing the seasons and the world changing each run. Will it improve my endurance, and probably round out my workouts slightly? Absolutely. Is that why I'm doing it? Nope. I've hit a point in life where running isn't my primary exercise, this is purely for the experience.

Now, having said that, as far as exercise and fitness go, I have found that strength comes more naturally to me than running. At best, I might get my mile times down to 10 minute miles at a relatively easy pace. But I know I can clean and press a 25lb kettlebell over 50x, I can swing a 50lb kettlebell 100x in 5 minutes, I am learning to snatch...and I feel my body responding and changing positively in a way that it never did from running. I never felt like I had massive improvements in running beyond endurance-I never picked up speed naturally, and it took me a brutally long time to break 30 minutes in a 5k. But I've experienced progression in kettlebells, and I find a different kind of fitness and peace there.

But I don't think you can discount or dismiss the importance of spending time outside exerting yourself to move forwards. Whether it's a walk, a run, or a hike, there's something mentally soothing you can't capture in any other way.

(As an aside, treadmills can burn in hell. I've done laps in parking garages over running on hotel treadmills. I regret nothing.)
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Top Bottom