Kettlebell Kettlebell AXE - general discussion

[SFSparky]

Thanks for AXE, Pavel T. Reading it a second time seeking to pick up the nuances I missed the first time around. It's a bit like trying to drink from a firehose. Still working on S&S so it'll be a while before diving into the deep end with AXE. Meanwhile, some questions:

A graphic in the book shows where AXE and various other programs fit under the AGT banner. How about S&S? The revised/updated version mentions that it's AGT. Category of its own?

AXE mentions using hypoxic breath holds. I have Second Wind Express, wondering which protocols would be appropriate for AXE.

I'd like to practice AXE one day a week as I continue with S&S three days a week to get to Timeless Simple with swings. Good idea, bad idea?

 

[johnsgroto91]

Question may have been answered, I like to get zone 2 running every day, maybe picking kids up in buggy or just getting to do it on my own. Is it ok to do very easy nose breathing runs 30 min say on the same day as axe for instance I'm going out now for easy 5 K 4/5 hours after training Axe

 

[Pavel]

Can it be done in the same session? (I.e. AXE swings, then Press training?) or is it best to do the AXE training by itself and train presses on a different day?

JR47, more often than not, heavy KB swings and snatches make the following military presses stronger. One caveat: both should not be high volume; the total session duration would be excessive.

Thankyou for answering so many of these questions it is truly helpful.
PS - did my second session today and am loving it. Hard training with strength and energy to spare.

Great to hear; as expected.

 

[Pavel]

@Pavel
Thanks alot for the great book! I no read it twice an can see, how you build up your books and protocols to complement each other!

Thank you, MXLADDER.

I have a question: although AXE and Q&D focus on Type IIX fibers, can their protocols be used for strength training as well? I'm doing a gymnastic strength training with Handstand Push Ups and and Muscles Ups.

If you need to build endurance in these exercises, then yes and you would be doing Strength Aerobics.

If strength is your priority, even though Strength Aerobics would build it, other methods like GTG would do it faster.

 

[Pavel]

I had been planning a run of ROP in the new year. Then I read the Kettlebell AXE and, of course, I now want to use my winter kettlebell block to be primarily based on AXE.
My idea was to use the principle days from both original programmes but switch out the medium day C&P for MP.

Mon - AXE SW + ROP light with MP
Wed- ROP medium with MP
Thu - AXE SW
Sat - ROP heavy with C&P

With option to do Wed + Thu together if schedule is busy.
I know Victorious is referred to in the book but I've run three Victorious cycles in the last couple of years and fancied a run of ROP for a change.
It feels like a good blend.

Pete L, a good plan.

 

[Pavel]

I appreciate that Pavel is constantly honing his writing skills and it shows up really well in the book. Initially I was kind of bummed that this was coming out before ES but I found I liked this book quite a bit. While I won't be doing the ultra minimalist protocol, I will be using this to supplement my strength training.

Thank you, sileraw! I would appreciate a review on Amazon.

 

[Pavel]

Thanks for AXE, Pavel T. Reading it a second time seeking to pick up the nuances I missed the first time around. It's a bit like trying to drink from a firehose.

Thank you, SFSparky.

A graphic in the book shows where AXE and various other programs fit under the AGT banner. How about S&S? The revised/updated version mentions that it's AGT. Category of its own?

A great question. S&S is a hybrid of AXE and type IIX hypertrophy training.

To go for hypertrophy all the way, you would do sets of 20-25 with longer rests. To go AXE all the way, lower reps (4-6) and more sets.

AXE mentions using hypoxic breath holds. I have Second Wind Express, wondering which protocols would be appropriate for AXE.

I'd like to practice AXE one day a week as I continue with S&S three days a week to get to Timeless Simple with swings. Good idea, bad idea?

In the book it’s says you can do strength training either the day before or the day after axe. It also gives the option of doing a third axe session on Saturday day.
This got me wondering if it was possible to do 3xAxe a week and 2xEasy strength
M- Axe
Tu- Easy Strength
W-Easy Strength
Th- Axe
F- Day off
S- Axe (Light)
Su- Day off

 

[Pavel]

In the book it’s says you can do strength training either the day before or the day after axe. It also gives the option of doing a third axe session on Saturday day.
This got me wondering if it was possible to do 3xAxe a week and 2xEasy strength
M- Axe
Tu- Easy Strength
W-Easy Strength
Th- Axe
F- Day off
S- Axe (Light)
Su- Day off

WhomtheBellTolls, spread the ES days out.

 

[Pavel]

What would be the difference in terms of adaption between short sets and short rest and longer sets and longer rests ? In other words what is the difference between progressing by increasing reps and keeping rest the same versus keeping reps the same and decreasing rest ?

Anders, I answered a similar question in this thread.

Could this thing with doing it every minute or so also work with pure strength like pull-ups or push-ups ? If so would you recommend increasing reps or decreasing rest between sets ?

Yes; refer to our newsletter. In summary, do 20% RM OTM.

 

[Pavel]

@Pavel: One question on the glycoytic jolts: Could glycolytic power repeats be used here as well or should they only be done in their own training block?

Bauer, yes.

 

[Pavel]

You stated/cited that the fuel during an AXE session is carbs and fat, and I believe that the point of the Fat Loss section is to point out that lipid metabolism is a large part of the energy consumed during an AXE session, not that the trainee will get shredded in no time flat. As you point out, Megan Kelly does AXE for 90minutes 4+(?) times a week, "yet here she is..." indicating much less glycogen usage than lipid. There really isn't anything there about body composition change.

Harry, we have Verkhoshansky's and Swedes' science plus anecdotal evidence of people losing fat but no studies were done to the best of my knowledge.

Is there any way to program AXE for actual body composition fat loss?

Not my wheelhouse but I have spoken to knowledgeable people and longer sessions fasted are the way to go.

• If No: Thank you for your contribution!
• If Yes: Is this outside the scope of Kettlebell AXE or this thread?
  • If No: If I wanted to push deep into the territory of diminishing returns, non-minimalist, AXE as primary physical activity, what kinds of anecdotal WTHE are you willing to share or hint at?

None of my subjects focused on fat loss or measured their BF; they reported improved muscle definition.

For instance, if I wanted to progress up to 45% bodyweight(goal weight =< 240lbs.) Swings and Jerks to 2.5-3x a week each to 40-60 minute sessions with post session walks, how would you compare AXE to IC(doubles+walks) or KBSF(doubles+walks), calories in being equal, in terms of "fat loss"?

If fat loss is your priority, a Metal Heart type protocol that uses type IIA fibers and enables much greater volumes is preferable. In AXE it is not the focus but a WHTE.

I like that the adaptation is anti-catabolic. Hopefully this translates to "preserving lean mass" during a 3-6month fat loss phase for somebody whose weigh scale refers to them as a Class III Obese...

Anti-catabolic it is.

 

[Pavel]

Would Q&D be a good option to use as a good glycolitic session for AXE? Not sure where KBSF plan with swings and getups would stand in this line? I believe it could be used as alternative to reach simple?

Huyovas, not to Q&D for glycolytic jolts; it is not glycolytic enough and requires weeks of easing into max power.

 

[Pavel]

I do something similar. 2 days of AXE, 2 days of Iron Cardio, 2 days of Zone 2 and 1 day of rest/variety or Z2. Covers a lot of bases for me.

Paules, a solid schedule.

 

[TimothyGander]

A great question. S&S is a hybrid of AXE and type IIX hypertrophy training.

To go for hypertrophy all the way, you would do sets of 20-25 with longer rests.

So how exactly would the "hypertrophy all the way" program look like? 100 reps per training day or more? And what would guide the rests (I assume "longer" means "longer than in S&S proper" and thus "longer than indicated by the talk test")? Would such training, since it would produce much more acid, still result in undesirable metabolic adaptations similar to those induced by typical HIIT/metcon training?

Thank you for answering so many questions in this thread. Reading it has been illuminating.

 

[SFSparky]

Thank you, SFSparky.

A great question. S&S is a hybrid of AXE and type IIX hypertrophy training.

To go for hypertrophy all the way, you would do sets of 20-25 with longer rests. To go AXE all the way, lower reps (4-6) and more sets.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to these and all the other questions.

 

[Bauer]

So how exactly would the "hypertrophy all the way" program look like? 100 reps per training day or more? And what would guide the rests (I assume "longer" means "longer than in S&S proper" and thus "longer than indicated by the talk test")? Would such training, since it would produce much more acid, still result in undesirable metabolic adaptations similar to those induced by typical HIIT/metcon training?

Thank you for answering so many question in this thread. Reading it has been illuminating.

This thread by @Adachi will give you some ideas:

Strong Endurance - Minimalist Hypertrophy

Intro I've recently seen fit to try my hand at a Strong Endurance hypertrophy protocol using Glycolytic Power Repeats. And I thought this might be good to share. I would like to state here that with some infrequency this protocol could be performed with any ballistic movement. Snatch, explosive...

www.strongfirst.com

There was a newsletter on Sept 15, 2021 on glycolytic power repeats too.

 

[Pavel]

So how exactly would the "hypertrophy all the way" program look like? 100 reps per training day or more? And what would guide the rests (I assume "longer" means "longer than in S&S proper" and thus "longer than indicated by the talk test")? Would such training, since it would produce much more acid, still result in undesirable metabolic adaptations similar to those induced by typical HIIT/metcon training?

Thank you for answering so many question in this thread. Reading it has been illuminating.

Timothy, ~100 reps is right, 5-10min rest, 2/week with one hard and one easy day. At Strong Endurance I explain how it works and how it is different from metcons.

 

[Archer]

I got my hard copy ordered last night. I can’t wait to start AXE. I’ve been doing Q&D again lately and I can actually feel my body healing. It’s good to be back to sessions that give you more than they take. Also added farmers carry lately.
I think I’ll do AXE and Q&D, and some occasional Iron Cardio or KBSF for the rest of the year and then start ROP.
I did 1-1/2 years of S&S (passing the timed standard with a 36kg), then I added Q&D for about another year.
Been doing a lot of Neupert’s C&P work since then.

 

[Georgiaoutdoors]

Metal Heart type protocol that uses type IIA fibers and enables much greater volumes is preferable

Where can these protocols be found?

 

[HarryBergers]

If fat loss is your priority, a Metal Heart type protocol that uses type IIA fibers and enables much greater volumes is preferable. In AXE it is not the focus but a WHTE.