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Kettlebell Is simple and sinister all you need?

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Kev said:
It’s meant to be a minimum effective dose with a ballistic component (swings) and The TGU which is an almost kata like time under tension high skill move. I remember it from The Russian Kettlebell Challenge when it was called the program minimum. I’ve done it and I achieved simple but I’m not a fan, rather famously on here. If it works for you good. If you want to achieve sinister, more power to you. But, and this is a Kevism, if you are wanting to replicate daily labour then I came up with an approach called “no matter what hit 10,000lbs as a minimum”. I stole this from Rob Orlando who did it as a metcon when he was pressed for time and he would use a heavy barbell and do squats or whatever and achieve 10,000lbs accumulated as fast as possible. My Kevism is if we are attempting to replicate labour why not just shift at least 10,000lbs daily? For perspective 182 swings with a 25kg is 10,000lbs accumulated. Very quickly this approach becomes easy and you will hit 20,000lbs, 30,000lbs and possibly higher. And when you are tired just hit 10,000lbs. The lifter can go hard and fast, they can go slow, they can go double kettlebell, they can work a lift, several lifts, complexes, sandbag work but no matter what….. shift that 10,000lbs as a minimum. I’ve done this for year long stretches. This is how I view a minimum effective dose. No matter what, shift 10,000lbs. And that’s just an arbitrary number. I don’t know what a labourer shifts a day. I don’t know what a blacksmiths strain is every time he swings a hammer but I do know that these dudes are offensively strong and a lot of them have never been near a barbell or a kettlebell. So it must be daily strain. What about type 2 fibres? We’ll train it explosively. What about Maf? Well 18 minutes of 10 swings at 25kg is already prescribed as maf from all the stuff I’ve read. What about the double C+J? Well it’s 91 reps with double 25kg. You can decide your approach. Just shift 10,000lbs as a daily minimum.
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I'm about to express some opinions people won't like.... sorry!

If it's all you do, S&S will make you a decent all rounder for "real life" with minimal time/ recovery investment. It's great when you're crazy busy or have a young family etc. You'll be decent, but you won't be very strong or very conditioned compared to what you could be.

If you do S&S plus a sport, it leaves time to train the latter intensely - that's the point. You're getting other adaptations from that sport to have a higher level of performance. I wish I did this when I was kickboxing/ boxing competitively.

If your want to be strong: doing a barbell program like Starting Strength or one of Pavels barbell programs will get you stronger in 3 months than S&S ever will in years.

If you want to have aerobic endurance, a running program will give you more in a few months than S&S will in years as well.

But it's a minimalist program that serves a very particular purpose and does that very well.
 
S&S is great, but ideally you'd have some other modalities of activity such as easy aerobic work and generally spending less time in a chair and more time outside or moving around. Sport and other hobbies are nice. Much depends on who you are.

As far as being strong goes, I can do timed Simple and I don't think of myself as overly strong. If your pulling off Timeless or Timed Sinister then you will have a nice level of strength but it still wouldn't really compare to what you could do with barbells. At that point, I'd almost say S&S is your sport.
 

Is simple and sinister all you need?​

It depends on your goals. If you want GPP and be able to do other things (like a sport or skill) then the answer is yes. Some LISS, like walking or rucking, is a good idea. If you goals include health and longevity then stress management, diet, sleep and so on must all be looked after as well.
 
oab said:

Is simple and sinister all you need?​

It depends on your goals. If you want GPP and be able to do other things (like a sport or skill) then the answer is yes.
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Certainly not in perpetuity.

There are diminishing returns to any modality and there will come a point where swings and TGUs will become stale, with less and less net new adaptation for time invested.

Then you can move on to other programming for a while, then revisit S&S at a later date to see how quickly your muscle memory returns and renew progression again.
 
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Every reasonable program works. Be it S&S, 5/3/1, Reddits bodyweight routine, DMPM, Starting Strength etc. Pick your poison, do not limit yourself by drinking koolaid.

Ive done S&S in the past. Will I do it again? Probably not as it dont align with my goals. Is S&S good? It made me weaker but better at swings and get-ups. One thing it did improve was increased hip mobility. Not sure If thats because the get-ups or daily stretches.

I train WALRUS these days. It has so far made me stronger and added mass to my frame with little time investments and ITS FUN!

Quoting Jim Wendler
If you can rip off 200 squats, 100 push-ups and 50 chin-up/pull-ups with an 80lbs vest in 30 minutes, you are going to be in pretty good shape (and strong) for just about anything.
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I'll do that until my needs or goals change.
 
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Stefan Olsson said:
The original question has already been awnsered in the thread. But by doing whatever, be it S&S or daily bodyweight excercises, will put you in a selected few in the world. Simply by doing something will make you an 'elite'.

Just do what YOU like and enjoy life.
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Perhaps my comment was misunderstood.

On multiple community forums, be it here, Starting Strength, Reddit bodyweight, etc, it's usually the new adherents who are convinced they've found "the one true way."

Whereas those who have run the complete programs, and then moved on to other programs, are less like to believe that any single program is some kind of magic solution that beats all others.
 
watchnerd said:
Perhaps my comment was misunderstood.

On multiple community forums, be it here, Starting Strength, Reddit bodyweight, etc, it's usually the new adherents who are convinced they've found "the one true way."

Whereas those who have run the complete programs, and then moved on to other programs, are less like to believe that any single program is some kind of magic solution that beats all others.
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Ah, now I get you and I fully agree!
 
silveraw said:
Yeah, he has been doing OMAD since ETK came out AFAIK. He seems to find something he likes and stick with it long term.
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I mentioned it because "training as you get older" was part of the original question, and the older you are, the more important the diet is. But it somehow got lost in this furious discussion.
 
Dayz said:
I'm about to express some opinions people won't like.... sorry!

If it's all you do, S&S will make you a decent all rounder for "real life" with minimal time/ recovery investment. It's great when you're crazy busy or have a young family etc. You'll be decent, but you won't be very strong or very conditioned compared to what you could be.

If you do S&S plus a sport, it leaves time to train the latter intensely - that's the point. You're getting other adaptations from that sport to have a higher level of performance. I wish I did this when I was kickboxing/ boxing competitively.

If your want to be strong: doing a barbell program like Starting Strength or one of Pavels barbell programs will get you stronger in 3 months than S&S ever will in years.

If you want to have aerobic endurance, a running program will give you more in a few months than S&S will in years as well.

But it's a minimalist program that serves a very particular purpose and does that very well.
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This should be accepted as an ultimate answer and the thread should be closed :D
 
Steve Freides said:
Swings and getups, perhaps?

:)

-S-
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Sure. ‍

Plus:

• Pull-ups
• Pushups
• 1-Arm Press variations (& Doubles)
• Deadlifts
• Goblet Squats & Double Kettlebell Front Squats
• Carries
• And a variety of other stuff (crawling, med ball, sandbag, battle ropes, etc.)!

And it can all be accomplished with 20-30 minute full-body sessions.
 
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Aj Bhardwaj said:
I think this is along the lines of a similar question that has sprung up before - "Perfect Program" or "Total complementary program".

I love SnS. I do it everyone morning as a recharge with a light bell. Is it all you need? Simple but boring answer - Depends on your goals.

The fun answer is more of an open question - What would you do, if you only 30 minutes per day, for the rest of your life? If you had been forced to make a choice.

For me - PTTP Alternating with SnS.
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What is PTTP
 
Steve Freides said:
Let’s fine-tune that. Minimalist programs give results that depend on the choice of lifts, the quality of the programming, and the adherence of the student more than traditional programs. If those three things are good, minimalist programs deliver big results.

-S-
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Certainly.
But if we put it in the context of S&S and the statement I made and point I was illustrating.
If that is ALL you do and you have time and capacity for more you leave most of your gains on the table.
For example in three months of a decent barbell program, you will get stronger than a year of S&S exclusivity. (To take a great example from another poster that weirdly matches near perfect my own experience )

Then we also get into what is minimalism. Is it doing as little as possible to get results? Or is it using the constraints of your time and equipment (basically using what you have) to attempt to produce the maximal results?

One approach focuses on doing as little as possible. The other focuses on getting as much as possible with what little you have.

To rephrase my original point. If you have a pull-up bar, is doing pull-ups and S&S no longer minimalist? Will it greatly enhance your results?
If the first question is no, and the second is yes, who gives a duck about that kind of minimalism.
 
silveraw said:
Then we also get into what is minimalism. Is it doing as little as possible to get results?
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There are a some elements of minimalism in the context of intermediate to advanced trainees that I don't see discussed very often that may be worth exploring (although these don't have much to do with S&S, specifically):

They are:
  • mTOR pathways need to be re-sensitized after periods of high volume and intensity, with de-load periods needed to drive further adaptation
  • At higher levels of development and training volume, large muscle groups (glutes, legs, back) can end up siphoning off a huge portion of the body's net recovery capacity and nutrient partitioning, leaving less for others
  • If an area needs more focus, and the organism is already operating at maximum adaptive volume, something has to come off the training plate to free up time and adaptive resources
For this reason, at the end of a typical post-comp 12 week hypertrophy block, I'll do a "focus block" for 8 weeks as a 2nd phase block in the overall 20 week hypertrophy mesocycle where I pick a lift that I want to work on more or has been lagging (probably the press this time around), and everything else will go into "maintenance mode".

This will mean I will intentionally do the absolute minimum necessary work in one area (e.g. squats, pulls), in order to put more training time and recovery resources into another (e.g. presses).
 
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