all posts post new thread

Other/Mixed Your Warm-Up Is Killing Your Workout... and Gains

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
I should also probably note that I train after a day of physical labor. In essence, my body is warmed up before I get to the weight room. A person’s lifestyle will probably dictate their warmup and training. A desk jockey might need to do more to get the blood flowing and everything in order.

Also, deadlifting first thing in the morning has always been something that’s caused me issues. If you train straight out of bed, I’d imagine you’d need a longer warmup.
 
I've found the warm-up that Jon Engum describes in Flexible Steel to be really helpful. I've been adding things here and there based on what I'm working that day or where I'm feeling a bit stiff. The drawback is that it takes a while to get through the full warmup (~20 mins), but it's been a great way of mixing in mobility work, easing into a workout, and setting yourself up to go pretty hard on the finisher without risking injury (it's a really thorough full body warmup/mobility routine).
 
The classic question is, does a lion warm up before chasing her prey? In a sense, I agree.
Even then, I don't know the details about lions, but my cat has the following routine before hunting at night:
1 - Wake up slowly.
2 - Stretch
3 - Groom (more stretching) and some light activity
4 - Go outside and patrol its territory at a slow to moderate pace, sometimes even the equivalent of a jog to investigate suspicious noise. That usually also includes some claw sharpening.
5 - If no easy prey was found at step 4, find an ambush location and wait to pounce. If there was something to chase at 4, then there were some sprints.
1 to 4 look like a warm up to me... The cat doesn't go from the equivalent of sitting at a desk for the whole day to an all out sprint in 1 minute.

This being said, my warm ups have always been minimalist and I don't feel they have led to any injury. What leads to injury is going hard (lift close to max reps, go all out in a sprint, ...) when you are tired (from doing too long a warm up maybe ;) )
 
Even then, I don't know the details about lions, but my cat has the following routine before hunting at night:
1 - Wake up slowly.
2 - Stretch
3 - Groom (more stretching) and some light activity
4 - Go outside and patrol its territory at a slow to moderate pace, sometimes even the equivalent of a jog to investigate suspicious noise. That usually also includes some claw sharpening.
5 - If no easy prey was found at step 4, find an ambush location and wait to pounce. If there was something to chase at 4, then there were some sprints.
1 to 4 look like a warm up to me... The cat doesn't go from the equivalent of sitting at a desk for the whole day to an all out sprint in 1 minute.

This being said, my warm ups have always been minimalist and I don't feel they have led to any injury. What leads to injury is going hard (lift close to max reps, go all out in a sprint, ...) when you are tired (from doing too long a warm up maybe ;) )

Nice that you follow how your cat does. Cats are the best.

Now, do you have a pet equivalent of the gazelle? Maybe a mouse? How do they do their warm up?

Curious, on what base do you consider your thoughts on what leads to injury?
 
Our cat does whatever it wants whenever it wants, and can still catch the odd bird despite having a bell and being 10yrs old, no warmup required haha.



Interesting thread and Ive thought about it further. My warmup is part of my training, and everything I do in the warmup is something I’d like to progress, mainly from a mobility point of view. I’m over 40, so having mobile hips etc is important. I feel better for doing it. Currently doing KB strong and I don’t think it would be good to just start doing dbl C&P without some warm up.
 
Nice that you follow how your cat does. Cats are the best.

Now, do you have a pet equivalent of the gazelle? Maybe a mouse? How do they do their warm up?

Curious, on what base do you consider your thoughts on what leads to injury?
We've talked about this in other threads - I don't know if you were there, but here you go:

*Just because wild animals don't warm-up doesn't mean they wouldn't if they could plan and reason like humans

*Wild animals incur muscle and connective tissue injuries while running after prey or being chased by predators (I'd guess this is a pretty common occurrence but I have no idea). Might they incur less if they had the leisure to 'warm-up' (or even 'train' - another thing wild animals don't spend much time doing after maturing)? I suspect they might.

My dog is older. She 'stretches' a lot more than she did when she was younger. A LOT.
 
Even then, I don't know the details about lions, but my cat has the following routine before hunting at night:
1 - Wake up slowly.
2 - Stretch
3 - Groom (more stretching) and some light activity
4 - Go outside and patrol its territory at a slow to moderate pace, sometimes even the equivalent of a jog to investigate suspicious noise. That usually also includes some claw sharpening.
5 - If no easy prey was found at step 4, find an ambush location and wait to pounce. If there was something to chase at 4, then there were some sprints.
1 to 4 look like a warm up to me... The cat doesn't go from the equivalent of sitting at a desk for the whole day to an all out sprint in 1 minute.

This being said, my warm ups have always been minimalist and I don't feel they have led to any injury. What leads to injury is going hard (lift close to max reps, go all out in a sprint, ...) when you are tired (from doing too long a warm up maybe ;) )
I should let my cat learn to hunt and save on cat food
 
Side Notes

1) One of the most effective method of obtaining more flexibility is to perform Full Range Movements: Full Squats, Deficit Deadlifts, Dumbbell Bench Presses, Pull Up/Chins, etc.

These movements are referred to as "Loaded Stretches". Along with improving flexibility, research shows that "Load Stretches" elicit an increase in muscle mass.

1) Is there any reason for this list to be limited to weighted exercises? I have found walking lunges and hindu pushups good for this.

2) Stretching a Muscle Group prior to performing an Exercise for that particular Muscle Group, decrease force production.

This means less Strength, Power and Speed are produced. You move less weight, which is counter productive.

2. I go to a regular style commercial gym. I don't see this being that common anymore at least where I go. I see a lot of people doing post-workout stretching these days, especially women. I can see the personal training sessions as well and there is little warmup beyond increasing the heart rate. and some warmup sets. They sometimes have clients stretch after a lift like when they have finished their bench press.

3) Ironically, Stretching Antagonist Muscles prior to performing an Agonist Exercise increasee force production.

Example

Streching the Lats prior to performing a Bench Press increase force production in the Bench Press.

The reason is that the Antagoinst Muscle (the Lats in this example) elicit a Braking Effect in the Agonist Muscles (the Bench Pressing in this example).

Think of Stretching the Antagonist Muscle prior peforming a Agonist Exercise as taking off the Emergency Brake On a car, rather tha diving with the Emergency Brake On.
I already agreed with your main post but point 3 is interesting. Thanks. Would be interested in more detail from anyone and how it would affect lifts like deadlift, press, or squat.
 
Due to the military and having a martial arts background, I used to do very long warm-ups. Fortunately I learned and got away from that mindset. Most of my warm ups nowadays are 5 minutes at best - a mix of crawling and bodyweight TGUs with some specific mobility work for my problem areas (it's not the years, it's the mileage).
 
1) Is there any reason for this list to be limited to weighted exercises? I have found walking lunges and hindu pushups good for this.
Walking Lunges and Hindu Push Ups

These will work.

Aggressive Stretching

1) Loaded Stretch


A Loaded (Weighted) Stretch is more aggressive.

It increased the stretch.

Loaded Examples

a) Hanging from a Pull Up Bar with a Weighted Dip Belt

b) Sitting in a Full Squat with a Barbell on your back.

c) Bench Press with Dumbbells in the bottom position.

Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation (PNF) Stretch


This article provides information on the PNF Stretch.

This method can be used with the Loaded Stretch.

Example

1) Perform a Body Weight Hang from Pull Up bar for a few seconds.

2) Rest a few seconds.

3) Perform a Loaded Strech with a Weight Loaded Dip Belt.

people doing post-workout stretching

Post Exercise Stretch

Connective Tissue is like String Cheeze.

It is more pliable and stretches better after it is heated up.

In this case, after a workout.

Stretching Between Sets

Research by Dr Jake Wilson determined stretching the muscles work in a exercise between sets increases Hypertrophy.

As per Wilson, a stretch of approxmately 30 second or less worked.

Stretch Time

Research indicates...

1) 30 Seond or Less doen't appear to affect Force Production.

2) 30 Seconds and Longer prior to Strength Training appear to have more of negative effect on Force Production.

Human and Bird Study

Wilson's research (University of Tampa Hiuman Performance Lab) was on humans.

It was the follow up to the results with birds...

Progressive stretch overload of skeletal muscle results in hypertrophy before hyperplasia


Dr Jose Antonio's 1993 research on bird determined...

Muscle length increased 60% (12 days), 34% (16 days), 59% (20 days), 50% (24 days), and 51% (28 days). Mean fiber area increased 111% (12 days), 142% (16 days), 75% (20 days), 90% (24 days), and 39% (28 days).

Would be interested in more detail from anyone and how it would affect lifts like deadlift, press, or squat.

Antagoinst Stretch

The Antongist Muscles provide a Braking Effect for an Agonist Muscle Exercise.

That Braking Effect decreases the Force Production in the Agonist Muscle Exercise; limiting Maximum Strength, Power and/or Speed.

Stretching the Antagonistic Muscle prior to an Agonist Muscle Exercise ensures slightly greater Force Prodution. That means there is a slight increase in Limit Strength, Power and/or Speed.

Another method is...

Alternatiing Antagonist-Agonist Exercises

1) Perform an Antagonist Exercise

2) Rest for let's say 3 minutes, then...

3) Perform an Agonist Exerercise

4) Repeat the above Alternating Sequeince.

Example

a) Bench Press


Perform a Bench Press (Antagonist Exercise for the Bene Over Row), rest for three minutes and then do a...

b) Bent Over Row

Perform a Bent Over Row, rest for three minutes and then...

Perform a the Bench Press.

The Bent Over Row is the Antagonist Muscle Group for the Bench Press.

Rest and then continue to Alternate Sets of the Bench Press and Bent Over Row.

Charles Poliquin Antagonistic Superset Rest Period Guidelines


Antagonist supersets let you perform twice as much work in the same amount of time.

Not only would you lift more weight on your sets but you would perform twice as much work in the same amount of time! Not a bad deal!

Upper Body Antagonist Stretching

There are definitive Upper Body Antagonist-Agonist Muscle Groups.

A simply way of identifying them is that the Pulling Exercises are the Antagoinst Muscles for Pushing Exercises and vise versa.

This isn't true for...

Lower Body Exercises

Lower Body Leg Movements are a different animal due to...

Lombard's Paradox

With Leg Movcements both the Agonist and Antagonist Muscle are engaged, working together in a movement...

When rising to stand from a sitting or squatting position, both the hamstrings and quadriceps contract at the same time, despite them being antagonists to each other. Source: Lombard's paradox - Wikipedia.

With that in mind, stretching the Hamstring prior to a Squat or stretching the Quads prior a Traditonal Deadlift may be counter productive. There no research data on it.

However, since the Lower Back is involved in a Squat and Deadlift, performing Ab Crunches, Sit Ups or an Isometric Ab Planks prior to a Squat or Deadlift might be effective for producing more Force Production in the Erectors during these lifts.

I use this method for Squats and Deadlifts. It appear to be effective. "Appears" means that it is mainly extrapolated speculation on my part.

However, as Poliquin stated in his article, it is allows me to get my Ab Work in during my Squats and Deadlift Training. My Deadlift Training revolves around Good Mornings. Back/Hip Extensions and Trap Bar Still Leg Deadlifts.
 
Last edited:
We've talked about this in other threads - I don't know if you were there, but here you go:

*Just because wild animals don't warm-up doesn't mean they wouldn't if they could plan and reason like humans

*Wild animals incur muscle and connective tissue injuries while running after prey or being chased by predators (I'd guess this is a pretty common occurrence but I have no idea). Might they incur less if they had the leisure to 'warm-up' (or even 'train' - another thing wild animals don't spend much time doing after maturing)? I suspect they might.

My dog is older. She 'stretches' a lot more than she did when she was younger. A LOT.

Or course the animals suffer injuries from moving. Why wouldn't they? But why, and how much, would they suffer less, if they warmed up? How should they warm up?

If the cat does a pandiculation upon waking, like me, does either of us need more, and on what basis?
 
1) Is there any reason for this list to be limited to weighted exercises? I have found walking lunges and hindu pushups good for this.
Walking Lunges and Hindu Push Ups

These will work.

Aggressive Stretching

1) Loaded Stretch


A Loaded (Weighted) Stretch is more aggressive.

It increases the stretch.

Loaded Examples

a) Hanging from a Pull Up Bar with a Weighted Dip Belt

b) Sitting in a Full Squat with a Barbell on your back.

c) Bench Press with Dumbbells in the bottom position.

Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation (PNF) Stretch


This article provides information on the PNF Stretch.

This method can be used with the Loaded Stretch.

Example

1) Perform a Body Weight Hang from a Pull Up bar for a few seconds.

2) Rest a few seconds.

3) Perform a Loaded Stretch with a Weight Loaded Dip Belt.

people doing post-workout stretching

Post Exercise Stretch

Connective Tissue is like String Cheese.

It is more pliable and stretches better after it is heated up.

In this case, after a workout.

Stretching Between Sets

Research by Dr Jake Wilson determined stretching the muscles work in an exercise between sets increases Hypertrophy.

As per Wilson, a stretch of approximately 30 second or less worked.

Stretch Time

Research indicates...

1) 30 Second or Less doen't appear to affect Force Production.

2) 30 Seconds and Longer prior to Strength Training appear to have more of a negative effect on Force Production.

Human and Bird Study

Wilson's research (University of Tampa Hiuman Performance Lab) was on humans.

It was the follow up to the results with birds...

Progressive stretch overload of skeletal muscle results in hypertrophy before hyperplasia


Dr Jose Antonio's 1993 research on bird determined...

Muscle length increased 60% (12 days), 34% (16 days), 59% (20 days), 50% (24 days), and 51% (28 days). Mean fiber area increased 111% (12 days), 142% (16 days), 75% (20 days), 90% (24 days), and 39% (28 days).

Would be interested in more detail from anyone and how it would affect lifts like deadlift, press, or squat.

Antagonistic Stretch

The Antongist Muscles provide a Braking Effect for an Agonist Muscle Exercise.

That Braking Effect decreases the Force Production in the Agonist Muscle Exercise; limiting Maximum Strength, Power and/or Speed.

Stretching the Antagonistic Muscle prior to an Agonist Muscle Exercise ensures slightly greater Force Production. That means there is a slight increase in Limit Strength, Power and/or Speed.

Another method is...

Alternating Antagonist-Agonist Exercises

1) Perform an Antagonist Exercise

2) Rest for let's say 3 minutes, then...

3) Perform an Agonist Exercise

4) Repeat the above Alternating Sequence.

Example

a) Bench Press

Perform a Bench Press (Antagonist Exercise for the Bene Over Row), rest for three minutes and then do a...

b) Bent Over Row

Perform a Bent Over Row, rest for three minutes and then...

Perform the Bench Press.

The Bent Over Row is the Antagonist Muscle Group for the Bench Press.

Rest and then continue to Alternate Sets of the Bench Press and Bent Over Row.

Charles Poliquin Antagonistic Superset Rest Period Guidelines


Antagonist supersets let you perform twice as much work in the same amount of time.

Not only would you lift more weight on your sets but you would perform twice as much work in the same amount of time! Not a bad deal!

Upper Body Antagonist Stretching

There are definitive Upper Body Antagonist-Agonist Muscle Groups.

A simply way of identifying them is that the Pulling Exercises are the Antagonist Muscles for Pushing Exercises and vice versa.

This isn't true for...

Lower Body Exercises

Lower Body Leg Movements are a different animal due to...

Lombard's Paradox

With Leg Movements both the Agonist and Antagonist Muscle are engaged, working together in a movement...

When rising to stand from a sitting or squatting position, both the hamstrings and quadriceps contract at the same time, despite them being antagonists to each other. Source: Lombard's paradox - Wikipedia.

With that in mind, stretching the Hamstring prior to a Squat or stretching the Quads prior to a Traditional Deadlift may be counterproductive. There is no research data on it.

However, since the Lower Back is involved in a Squat and Deadlift, performing Ab Crunches, Sit Ups or an Isometric Ab Planks prior to a Squat or Deadlift might be effective for producing more Force Production in the Erectors during these lifts.

I use this method for Squats and Deadlifts. It appears to be effective. "Appears" means that it is mainly extrapolated speculation on my part.

However, as Poliquin stated in his article, it allows me to get my Ab Work in during my Squats and Deadlift Training. My Deadlift Training revolves around Good Mornings. Back/Hip Extensions and Trap Bar Stiff Leg Deadlifts.
 
Last edited:
Or course the animals suffer injuries from moving. Why wouldn't they? But why, and how much, would they suffer less, if they warmed up?
Like I said, I doubt there are numbers, but you only have to watch National Geographic occasionally to know it happens with some frequency. Again, like I said, I suspect they would indeed suffer less if they could warm up.
How should they warm up?
Well, they're not going to (and I guess neither are you), so...
 
Like I said, I doubt there are numbers, but you only have to watch National Geographic occasionally to know it happens with some frequency. Again, like I said, I suspect they would indeed suffer less if they could warm up.

Well, they're not going to (and I guess neither are you), so...
What if we could look at racehorses or greyhounds? Do they do better if you run them cold, or are they warmed up before the race? I know absolutely nothing about either (except that one is a horse and one is a dog that got caught in a trash compactor), but I wonder if they could inform the conversation at all. Animals in the wild aren't looking for peak performance, and as far as we know aren't capable of planning ahead, but humans use animals in sports so maybe there's a crossover.

I guess I could start doing some internet browsing ... Or maybe I'll just go and make a cup of coffee and sit down with a book and try to read while my children jump on me... hmm decisions decisions...
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom