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Simple & Sinister - General discussion

Pavel.Kosenkov said:
It would be interesting to hear: are there people who have actually started with 16 and worked their way to 32 in 8 kg jumps by the book? Well, except for Pavel Macek. Who is, of course, remarkable. At bodyweight of 66 I can only dream of the simple standard right now...
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I did with swings. I'm 170 cm and 82 kilos (and 62 yrs).
But I didn't progress as the book with 1H vs 2H with the 32. It was just too much strain on the upper back area. (I was doing sets of 10. )
I switched to 2H and sets of 5 OTM and I'm waiting for my body to tell me when it's ready to go back to 1H.
 
Pavel.Kosenkov said:
It would be interesting to hear: are there people who have actually started with 16 and worked their way to 32 in 8 kg jumps by the book? Well, except for Pavel Macek. Who is, of course, remarkable. At bodyweight of 66 I can only dream of the simple standard right now...
Click to expand...
I started with 8 kg summer 2021 and have been progressing using the step loading by the book. I load the next step after about 24 practice sessions, not after four weeks unless I practiced 6 times per week. It's been amazingly reliable. I was 68 kg when I started and now about 73 kg. I'm now using 32 kg for 8 sets and 40 kg for 2 sets. It's interesting to see how long I can keep it going.
 
Pavel.Kosenkov said:
It would be interesting to hear: are there people who have actually started with 16 and worked their way to 32 in 8 kg jumps by the book? Well, except for Pavel Macek. Who is, of course, remarkable. At bodyweight of 66 I can only dream of the simple standard right now...
Click to expand...
I did progress from 16 to 24 to 32. but my body weight was 225 lbs.
 
I did 16 —> 24 —> 32 just fine. It took a long time to get comfortable with the 32 though. I had to spend 2 months before adding the 3rd and 4th sets in, and another couple of months before adding the 5th and 6th.

Then finally I seemed to have the strength to get the remaining sets without issue.

It just takes patience and consistency.
 
I'm working with 4kg jumps between bells. Started 01/01/2023, 2.5 weeks away from the end of the 24kg step cycle, then will work with 28kg. Admittedly I'm not that far in, but I've found it to pretty reliable and progression has been pretty smooth. By 8 sets with the heavier bell I'm feeling like I 'own' it and am ready for the next size up. I practice S&S 5-6 times a week. I can't imagine the 8kg steps going as smoothly for myself. Given it takes the same amount of time, I don't see why to chose the 8kg jumps over 4kg other than saving some money and space.
 
This thread is making want to run S&S again after I finish Q&D at the end of this month!! I will say, I think once you get above 32KG you need more specific strategies in regards to progression. There are a few programs out there that speak on waving the volume etc
 
How far down do people go on KB deadlifts? My hamstring mobility means there’s a LOT of knee bend involved, and I almost get to the bottom by pushing my butt back with some knee bend but then once I get to that end range I just squat the rest of the way down.

Im worried it’s that end range of motion that’s giving me niggles on the backside of my left hip, and am tempted to deadlift from a block/cushion of some kind or just stop at that end range for the hamstrings.

Anyone have any advice?
 
SUOMI-PUKU said:
How far down do people go on KB deadlifts? My hamstring mobility means there’s a LOT of knee bend involved, and I almost get to the bottom by pushing my butt back with some knee bend but then once I get to that end range I just squat the rest of the way down.

Im worried it’s that end range of motion that’s giving me niggles on the backside of my left hip, and am tempted to deadlift from a block/cushion of some kind or just stop at that end range for the hamstrings.

Anyone have any advice?
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Video would be helpful.
 
SUOMI-PUKU said:
Was thinking this as I was typing the message and thinking “this is difficult to get across through text”. Next time I train I’ll do my best to record!
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Sounds good. Keep in mind that flexibility may take time to develop, that if you’re using a smaller bell you have MORE flexibility demands than a larger bell, and that some knee bend is not bad. Hinge has 3 levels, in a > shape. Some peoples hips may be lower than others, but you should still have a distinct level change from shoulders to hips to knees.
 
Pavel.Kosenkov said:
It would be interesting to hear: are there people who have actually started with 16 and worked their way to 32 in 8 kg jumps by the book? Well, except for Pavel Macek. Who is, of course, remarkable. At bodyweight of 66 I can only dream of the simple standard right now...
Click to expand...
Yes, I did. I am a bit bigger at around 77kg and was heavier when I completed S&S, but I followed the progression in the book as written and got to timeless Simple. Then with a peak, a month later I came back and knocked out timed simple on my first attempt.

I have since moved on to barbells as my main lifting, and come back to kettlebells for main lifts 1-2 times a year but have not tried S&S again. I originally thought I wanted to work toward Sinister, but my goals have changed so I have not revisited it but I felt it did great things for me at the time.
 
I did the 16-24-32 progression by the book, according to the schedule laid out in the book. It took a little over 1 year (took several months off for a medical issue). I started at a body weight of 70kg at 43 years old. Eventually worked up to timeless simple with the 40kg bell - working with the 40 required more rest days and slower progress, so I started focusing on improving c&p.

I’ve been doing RoP for several rounds (24, 28kg) and the other day I completed timed simple on a variety day, my first attempt in about a year.
 
I skipped 16 and started with 24. I followed the progression from 24 to 40 with 8k jumps. Going from 40 to 48 was a bit much so I bought a 44. That’s what I’m currently using. But I’ve mostly moved away from S&S to KBSF as it is easier to mix other modalities in with it.

I started at 100kg and most of my training was powerlifting. That’s why I skipped 16kg. It was just too light. I’m now 90kg so the 44 let’s me hit the standard laid out in KBSF, which is another reason I switched to it. I’ll get to 48kg one day. Might switch back to S&S at that point just to hit the timed simple standard. But I’m in no rush. And barbells will always be number 1 to me. I don’t think that I could devote a big enough chunk of time just to kettlebells.

Edit To Add: Weight, background, etc
 
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John K said:
Sounds good. Keep in mind that flexibility may take time to develop, that if you’re using a smaller bell you have MORE flexibility demands than a larger bell, and that some knee bend is not bad. Hinge has 3 levels, in a > shape. Some peoples hips may be lower than others, but you should still have a distinct level change from shoulders to hips to knees.
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Here is a video of me doing the “butt to wall drill” to show my hinge, from that point you see I am nowhere near reaching a kettlebell on the floor so the rest is knee bend. Is that an issue? (I am doing some flexible steel to try and improve my hamstring flexibility).

Also did some 24kg KB deadlifts and swings. Found after working up to it this felt more natural than the 16kg, which I’ve actually been using for all my workouts. I think I might stick with 24kg and lower rep sets for now.

Any comments or critique welcome. Some things I noticed myself:
  • I should stop and fixate at the top of the DL rep as I stopped short on a few reps rushing that part. It would be helpful so I can ingrain that standing plank deep into my mind.
  • Mid back seems to have a curve inwards, I have no idea if this is something that needs addressing or just my natural curvature of my back!
  • Kettlebell isn’t quite coming back between the heels on the DL near the end, not sure if that’s really an issue.
  • Is my low back okay here? I can’t tell if it’s rounded or not…
 
@SUOMI-PUKU your deadlift looks OK to me. If you think the movement is bothering your hip, you can elevate it... nothing lost by doing that. But also, what's the purpose of doing kettlebell deadlifts, for you? They are a great drill and pattern for the swing, both for beginners and for anyone at any stage, but beyond that they don't do all that much to build strength and power... For that -- kettlebell swings, or heavier deadlifts such as barbell.

Other than that:
  • I'd agree with your idea of using 24 kg for deadlifts and swings. 16 kg looks quite light for you.
  • On your deadlift and your swing, brace your abs hard, especially as you come from hinge to plank, and in the standing plank. You look a little disconnected and power isn't transferring well from legs to kettlebell on the upswing. I'd focus first on abs to fix that.
  • The next thing would be delaying the move from hinge to plank on the first part of the kettlebell's descent. Stay vertical in a tall, tight, standing plank until you must hinge -- then get there fast.
Hope that's helpful :)
 
@Anna C
Thanks very much for the pointers!

The deadlifts are just there for the technique drilling, I’ll probably do them first in my swing practice time, followed by 2HS.

“Abs” on the standing plank and “wait for the bell” are my takeaways there.
 
I started with the 12kg for about 6 weeks in Jan '22, then bought a 16kg in Feb (Valentine's love from my wife), then a 24kg in December. My progression was great. I acchieved timeless with the 12kg by April '22 or so, but something happend to my TGU and I haven't yet become comfortable with moving from the lunge to standing. BUT I can press, lunge down and back up, just not with the TGU...and this includes the 12kg. so I've just started this:
- normal TGU (12kg) -> get to the kneeling position -> move the KB from overhead into a rack -> stand up -> press -> go down as normal TGU (not rack).
I'll continue this for a bit and see how it goes.

I'm really happy with my swings on the 24 kg. not yet as powerful hip-snaps as I want, I will get there. I was tired yesterday so instead of doing few reps with 24, I decided to do my entire 30min practice with the 12kg. I found that my hip-snaps are actually SUPER POWERFUL compared to the last time I swung the 12kg about 6 weeks ago. I realized that I was previously using arm/shoulders to lift the KB, but yesterday the KB really flew up almost into the Snatch height without any arm involvement (rag doll arms).

now I want the 32kg bell so that I can fly with the 24:) :) but $$$ so I will be patient. We must find the balance in health, wealth and wisdom.

@Anna C told me early on my journey not to waste time with the baby bells. and I now WHOLLY FULLY TRULY believe her when she told me to stop Q&D and persue S&S. She was so angry with me when I insisted that I loved Q&D :) I was skeptical but followed her advice diligently with the 12/16 kg's. now I understand taht I can and should generate much more power as I move upp the KB weights to a respectable 28or32 before tackling Q&D. using 3 KB's weights correctly would have definitely sped up my progress over the past year.

I'm hoping for the 8kg jump from 24 to 32 when I want to move up. but I think that I will stick with the 3 for a while as I can cheaply move to dbl KB work with 24/12 or 24/16 or 16/12 kg's...I was doing a lot of 16/12kg doubles before I bought the 24.
 
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