Oskarand
Level 4 Valued Member
What is actually the A+A program and where can I find more information? My intro to KB was through S&S.
Simple & Sinister - General discussion
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lais817
Level 7 Valued Member
The Best All-Around Training Method EVER | StrongFirst
This method, while it does not maximize the development of any of the above qualities—only a highly specialized method, not a general physical preparation one, could do that—it develops them to levels high enough to successfully compete in amateur sports, excel at physically demanding...
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There is a book in the works also.
Red_and_Black
Level 6 Valued Member
I've taken and adapted from stuff on here. I do:
- 5 x kettlebell snatches (1H alternate sides) or 7 x kettlebell swings (2H) EMOM for 20-50 minutes.
- Week 1: 20, 22, 24, 26 mins.
- Week 2: 22, 24, 26, 28 mins
At the moment I'm doing 6 sessions a week: 3 x S&S (but with TGUs subbed with alt sides clean, press, squat) and 3 x A&A.
Background is 51 year old, 177cm & 79kg b/w, long history of various training (running, mountaineering, military, rucking, Crossfit, barbell work) but now tend to train for overall health, fitness and longevity rather than chasing numbers or specific goals.
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Pavel.Kosenkov
Level 5 Valued Member
Folks, did anyone do S&S from SFKB program?
After switching from 5 reps on the minute to 5 reps on 30 seconds, how much did your volume drop?
The idea is that we are passing the talk test. That is very achievable with 5 reps on the minute.
But on 30 sec, I would say that I would drop right down to 10 sets from 20 sets. It's 50 total reps per session instead of a 100. Sure, I can do my 20 sets on 30 sec. I will not be gasping for air, - but I won't be passing the talk test either.
What was your experience when switching to 5 reps on 30'?
Maybe I am doing it wrong, and dropping to 50 total reps is actually ok... I was not breathing hard at all at 5 reps on the minute.
After switching from 5 reps on the minute to 5 reps on 30 seconds, how much did your volume drop?
The idea is that we are passing the talk test. That is very achievable with 5 reps on the minute.
But on 30 sec, I would say that I would drop right down to 10 sets from 20 sets. It's 50 total reps per session instead of a 100. Sure, I can do my 20 sets on 30 sec. I will not be gasping for air, - but I won't be passing the talk test either.
What was your experience when switching to 5 reps on 30'?
Maybe I am doing it wrong, and dropping to 50 total reps is actually ok... I was not breathing hard at all at 5 reps on the minute.
Dimitri87
Level 4 Valued Member
I have to admit I didn't follow the SFKB program for very long, but I experienced the same you did. I managed 20 min every 60 seconds pretty easily with a 28kg. The first session I did every 30 seconds I only got in 7 minutes, when I followed the talk test. I think this is normal, I guess that's why the program states to increase the weight and go back to 5 every 60 seconds if you didn't make progress for 3 weeks when you do every 30 seconds. This rules doesn't apply to 60 seconds.
Pete L
Level 6 Valued Member
KBSF swing protocol;
20 sets EMOM to 24 sets E30O30 on first switch down.
Grip was limiting factor.
james_1127
Level 6 Valued Member
The every :30" protocol is just a peaking type program... You're not supposed to even come close to the OTM due to doubling your "reps per minute" (RPM)
that's why once you stall out on the E:30 protocol you either add weight and go back to OTM for 20min or push it to OTM for 40min
I would push to the 40min mark x5 OTM.. that should make transitioning to S&S easier
I started the Surfing Sinister from @pavelmacek a little more then two weeks ago.
For a long time I have the goal of reaching (at least) timeless sinister, but after doing the 20 weeks of 32-40 in our first lockdown, I didn't like the feeling of starting at beginning of the step-cycle again.
The surfing version is exactly what I need now!
- timer per 45 minutes: timers beeps, session over as is.
- warm up: 5 prying goblet squat with the 16, arm bar both sides, FMS glute bridge (hand chopped in hip), goblet squat with swing weight, half kneeling Halo both sides, FMS glute bridge, 5 goblet squats with swing weight, tall kneeling halo's, FMS glute bridge.
- Surfing Sinister per die roll as written.
- One set of 5 with the remaining SFG 1 skills with my lowest intensity bell (24) as skill training.
So far, never reached the 45 minutes, around 10-1 minute left when I'm finished. I try to do 5 sessions per week, with 2 active recovery with the Ground Force Method: General mobility.
Surfing the Waves to Timeless Sinister | StrongFirst
“Each time [the waves] fall, they never fail to rise again.”—Josh BillingsYou earned the stripes of “Timed Simple.” You took the time and mastered the weights between Simple and Sinister (40kg for gents both in the swing and the get-up, 28kg in the swing and 20kg in the get-up for the ladies)...
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For a long time I have the goal of reaching (at least) timeless sinister, but after doing the 20 weeks of 32-40 in our first lockdown, I didn't like the feeling of starting at beginning of the step-cycle again.
The surfing version is exactly what I need now!
- timer per 45 minutes: timers beeps, session over as is.
- warm up: 5 prying goblet squat with the 16, arm bar both sides, FMS glute bridge (hand chopped in hip), goblet squat with swing weight, half kneeling Halo both sides, FMS glute bridge, 5 goblet squats with swing weight, tall kneeling halo's, FMS glute bridge.
- Surfing Sinister per die roll as written.
- One set of 5 with the remaining SFG 1 skills with my lowest intensity bell (24) as skill training.
So far, never reached the 45 minutes, around 10-1 minute left when I'm finished. I try to do 5 sessions per week, with 2 active recovery with the Ground Force Method: General mobility.
Pavel.Kosenkov
Level 5 Valued Member
Folks, just to be sure: the classic S&S practice, timeless. 10x10 swings with the talk test - does it qualify as A+A training?
Or do we have to stick with lower reps - say, 5x20?
My set of 5 swings (with the setup for it) lasts about 15 sec. Those 5 reps (without a setup) - shorter of course.
A set of 10 will be longer, of course.
Apologies for the noob question.
Or do we have to stick with lower reps - say, 5x20?
My set of 5 swings (with the setup for it) lasts about 15 sec. Those 5 reps (without a setup) - shorter of course.
A set of 10 will be longer, of course.
Apologies for the noob question.
TedM
Level 6 Valued Member
You need to check out @Harald Motz threads and also references to what @Al Ciampa has written. i don't have it handy now, but spend some time on that.
Personally, I needed more recovery time from S&S and (to make a long story short) and I am kind of time starved. I contacted Harald - and told him that i have 20 min a day and have 3 days a week for kb (with the other days for bw/OS).
He suggested sets of 5 OTM- since you can do 5 swings in 15 sec or less, and that keeps you under the threshold... And to wave the stets each session - 1 day 18, on 24, one 20.
I've loved each session... I feel energized and not depleted. And i was feeling depleted after close to a year of S&S swings....
james_1127
Level 6 Valued Member
I don't consider S&S as A+A... to me A+A requires HEAVY weight that forces maximum power, thus can't really last past 10-12 second range
S&S to me is more of a hypertophy/foundational type program IMO. The 10s in S&S once you get to a certain level definitely are not A+A
Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
The longer you rest - the more Alactic it is.
The shorter you rest - the less Alactic it is.
Pavel.Kosenkov
Level 5 Valued Member
Well, as a follow-up - why do we swing for 10 times? I know, that Pavel has written that it seems to be the max number before the power drops. And the hypertrophy, which I personally don't believe - otherwise everyone would be jacked.
Are there any other compelling reasons - why do we swing 10x10?
Are there any other compelling reasons - why do we swing 10x10?
Pavel.Kosenkov
Level 5 Valued Member
Ah - and also I wonder about the step loading. It's seems to me that one of the problems step loading is trying to solve - a limited amount of bells. Do your sets - upgrade to another bell, eventually get another one. That is sweet. I just wonder - how close am I to the truth.
Pete L
Level 6 Valued Member
Cos it works
Pete L
Level 6 Valued Member
Cos it works.
Perhaps you can find an additive manufacturer and try the Milo approach instead.
Pavel.Kosenkov
Level 5 Valued Member
@Pete L , - everything works. Linear progression works. Heavy-Light-Medium works. Bodybuilding top set - back-off set setup works.
For me - if I read "just do this" (10 sets of 10), it's natural to ask: "But why?"
I do not ask it as: "Why should I do it?" I ask it as: "If I know why I do it, I can do it better."
For me - if I read "just do this" (10 sets of 10), it's natural to ask: "But why?"
I do not ask it as: "Why should I do it?" I ask it as: "If I know why I do it, I can do it better."
@Pavel.Kosenkov I asked a similar questions about A+A in another thread and got some helpful answers. S&S swings as A+A Short answer, the approach to rest (talk test) is very much A+A but would normally do A+A for 5 or so reps with a heavier weight.
Pavel.Kosenkov
Level 5 Valued Member
Thank you - I have figured it's easier to read The Quick And The Dead. There are chapters on 10x10 reloaded.
I have not read everything, but at the first glance:
And:
P.S. If I am not allowed to post quotes from the book - feel free to edit my massage.
mikko
Level 4 Valued Member
@Pavel.Kosenkov why 10×10 is explained in the S&S book chapter "A little every day goes a long way" and why step loading in chapters "Step loading for maximum reliability" and "Leap of faith between weights".