Kettlebell Kettlebell AXE - general discussion

[Matt604]

Thank you, Matt. To below the AnT/LT.

When you recover too long, the aerobic metabolism powers down.

Thanks Pavel! That’s how I understand the instructions in the book.

The standard ventilatory marker of the talk test is correlation of heart rate and AeT or a blood lactate level roughly 2mMol/L .

Yes, that’s what I understand from other sources on endurance training. But AXE must be using “talk test” a little differently because it equates it with dropping below the LT.

Regardless, a great read, and I will implement elements of it into my training!

 

[Pavel]

Thanks for your answer. My goal is cardiovascular stimulation for health purposes. I already go hiking and play tennis once a week.

Paotle, do an AXE set every 2min; get your cardio from hiking and tennis.

 

[Pavel]

Pavel, thanks again for answering questions, and the splendid book.

Thank you, Bauer.

what would you answer to the objection that AXE cannot be a minimal effective dose for adaptations of the heart due to the shorter average session duration?

I said in the book that it might be the case and advised a reader to rely on Cooper's test and his doc's and coach's recommendations.

 

[Pavel]

@Pavel
I see your comment about the aerobic metabolism powering down when you take too long a rest. my medical aid requires me to train 30min minumum, so I need to manage the occasions when I reach a stop-signal too early (e.g. well before 25 minutes, with 6minutes for cooldown = 31min session).
say I'm doing EMOM 5x24kg swings and hit a stop-signal at 15 minutes -> I switch to 16kg for a few sets (or maybe 24kg x3 reps per set) -> back to 5x24kg by 20minutes and continue for my 31 minute practice.
what is your opinion of this? this situation occurs 1or2 per month for me (typically when I'm C+J+J/C+P+P 16kg)

Xcal, it would be better to reduce the reps and carry on with the same weight and power output.

 

[Pavel]

@Pavel In Q+D you made a distinction between the effects of training fasted and non-fasted (with time of day also being a mentioned factor.)

What differences (if any) do: time of day, or fasted / non fasted training make to AXE?

JR47, nutrition is not in my wheelhouse. In Q&D I recommended training fasted because it amplifies AMPK signalling and I did not need to be a nutrition expert to recommend it.

For AXE, please ask people in the know.

 

[Pavel]

@Pavel I am using AXE with the snatch, and already ruck 1-3 times per week. I have a secondary goal of Maintaining/slowly increasing strength in the 1 arm kb press, and and deadlift. My schedule only allows for training a few times a week. Is it advisable to add the dead and the press after axe sessions, or rucks for 3-5 singles Ala the minimalist deadlift article?

D.McFarland, you can build your press under your training circumstances but a combination of snatching and rucking would make it challenging to push your DL up.

If you decide to try it, consider John McKean's 5 singles protocol, as described in Easy Strength, right before the snatches and pay attention to what your back is telling you.

Thank you for this great book, and answering all of these questions, i have already left a review on Amazon!!

Thank you!

 

[Pavel]

Lots of perfectionism and fear of not doing something perfectly in this thread. I think that many of the questions have already been indirectly answered in the book.

Korcun, you have a point.

Thank you for the great book @Pavel - A great inspiration. I particularly like the big picture and the philosophical approaches. Just started the program after 12 weeks Q&D. I've chosen the Snatch because dropping the bell is no option in my courage corner.

Thank you and power to you!

 

[Pavel]

The standard ventilatory marker of the talk test is correlation of heart rate and AeT or a blood lactate level roughly 2mMol/L .

Offwidth, for the AnT it is ~4mM and there are reasons to allow BLa to spike even more right after a set. See the notes and references in the back.

 

[Pavel]

Yep. 100% sure. In the physiology and endurance domain, talk test is the aerobic threshold (2mmol/L), not anaerobic (4mmol/L). When you are in that zone (2 in 3 zones model, or 3 in 5 zones model) between the aerobic and anaerobic threshold it isn't possible to pass the talk test, even for olympic champions.

Paotle, please look up the ventilatory threshold.

 

[offwidth]

Regarding the ‘talk test’….
Being able to easily pass the talk test clearly indicates that one is usually going to be at or below their AeT (~2mMol/L) or typically Z1-Z2 in a 5 zone system. As one moves closer and closer to their AnT (~4mMol/L) the beginning of Z4, the talk test will become increasingly difficult to pass. Once past this they are in the ground between their lactate threshold and exhaustion. So, I can clearly see how Pavel is using the talk test in the case of AXE.

For us locomotive endurance folks in the crowd; we are looking looking to increase the range of our Zones 1 -2, thus raising our AeT. This has the effect of narrowing the band of Z3, and in some cases slightly raising AnT. A well trained endurance athlete will have a much closer distance between AeT and AnT, than one who is aerobically deficient . This also makes sense that the talk test is very useful in the AXE environment.

Thanks again to Pavel for being so patient with answering our various questions.

 

[Matt604]

Got it -- thanks for the clarification, offwidth. And thanks again for a great book and all your time on this thread, Pavel.

 

[ClaudeR]

Hello Pavel,

Really appreciate your dedication and patience in answering our multitude of questions!

Since I am thinking about the focus for the winter, I have another question (to confirm my understanding of reading all replies so far):

-normally I’d spend winter working on raw strength (a remnant from my triathlon days where winter is to get strong (and some hypertrophy), and spring/between races to get endurant).

If I were to run a block (or two) of BuiltStrong, is it correct to assume I’d do BtS as written 3x week, and 1 AXE session per week (as per focus on one goal, do 1 session only for the other)? Or is that useless, or worse, a receipe for disaster?
Would the recommendation be different for AXE together with Victorious?

Thank you very much again!

Claude

 

[Training for Life]

Much respect to Pavel for taking the time and answering all these questions. I feel like I’ve learned so many things on top of all the knowledge in the book. Thank you!

 

[Paotle]

Paotle, do an AXE set every 2min; get your cardio from hiking and tennis.

Thanks for your answer, Pavel. Always great to have your feedback.

 

[JR47]

@Pavel

In regards to other training:

Can it be done in the same session? (I.e. AXE swings, then Press training?) or is it best to do the AXE training by itself and train presses on a different day?

Thankyou for answering so many of these questions it is truly helpful.

PS - did my second session today and am loving it. Hard training with strength and energy to spare.

 

[MXLADDER]

@Pavel
Thanks alot for the great book! I no read it twice an can see, how you build up your books and protocols to complement each other!

I have a question: although AXE and Q&D focus on Type IIX fibers, can their protocols be used for strength training as well? I'm doing a gymnastic strength training with Handstand Push Ups and and Muscles Ups. But the classical 5x5 doesn't give me enough volume to successfully progress to full ROM Handstand Push Ups for multiple sets. So based on all the logic in your protocols, what do you think about the following progression, doing each protocol for 6-8 weeks. The AGT protocols serve a as a foundation builder for the ladders in the end.


1) 015: 2 HSPU every 3 mins + 2 MU starting at 01:30 for up to 10 sets (20 reps in 30 mins)
2) 033: 2 HSPU + 2 MU x4 for up to 5 rounds (40 reps in 30 mins max)
3) AXE circuit: 3 HSPU every 90 Sec + 3 MU starting at 45 sec (60 reps ins 30mins)
4) Ladders like 1,2,3 every 3 minutes

Thank you!

 

[Pete L]

I had been planning a run of ROP in the new year. Then I read the Kettlebell AXE and, of course, I now want to use my winter kettlebell block to be primarily based on AXE.
My idea was to use the principle days from both original programmes but switch out the medium day C&P for MP.

Mon - AXE SW + ROP light with MP
Wed- ROP medium with MP
Thu - AXE SW
Sat - ROP heavy with C&P

With option to do Wed + Thu together if schedule is busy.
I know Victorious is referred to in the book but I've run three Victorious cycles in the last couple of years and fancied a run of ROP for a change.
It feels like a good blend.

 

[mightstone2k]

I had been planning [something different]. Then I read the Kettlebell AXE

I feel your pain.

 

[Ryan T]

I enjoyed it, but it was so comprehensive it made my head spin. My problem with SF books are always that they're extremely minimalist and then i struggle to apply them to my goal lifts (sandbag shouldering, weighted lunges, weighted push-ups, weighted rows, swings). In the last year, the two best programs I've cobbled together to let me tackle S&C with Strongfirst programming are:

Total Package
Day 1 (strength - goal lifts minus swings, performed using Kenny's cluster method)
Day 2 (conditioning - S&S)
Day 3 (strength - goal lifts minus swings, performed using Kenny's contrast method)
Day 4 (conditioning - A+A C&J one week, glycolytic circuit the next)

and:

OLAD
Day 1 sandbag shouldering
Day 2 weighted push-ups
Day 3 swings
Day 4 weighted lunges
Day 5 weighted rows
Day 6 hanging

The OLAD work was very heavy singles, doubles and triples using long rest breaks (3-5 mins between sets), except for the swings which were EMOM for 30-60 minutes done using the stop signs (almost AXE already).

I can see myself doing AXE work in Total Package pretty easily (on conditioning days), but i wonder if AXE work could be applied to ALL the lifts (except hanging) in the OLAD program. I could see myself turning OLAD into training blocks: one month as heavy strength work, one month as AXE work, and then back again.

On the other hand, I could also see myself screwing everything up. The book makes it sound like the Soviets applied AXE to many lifts, but I'm in no position to tinker with things.

I don't know why I typed this all up. Clearing things up in my head, I guess.

You could just do whatever you’re doing if it already works, and switch down the road to devote more attention to it.

 

[silveraw]

I'm going through the book a second time right now. One thing that stood out to me is the vice analogy. It makes the concept of AXE make sense in a way that Q&D never really did for me.

I'm starting to come around to the new "high concept first, then low tech implementation second" format of the newer books. After this second time going through I feel like I'm actually starting to understand the principles and grasping how to apply this to things other than h2h swings.

I appreciate that Pavel is constantly honing his writing skills and it shows up really well in the book. Initially I was kind of bummed that this was coming out before ES but I found I liked this book quite a bit. While I won't be doing the ultra minimalist protocol, I will be using this to supplement my strength training.

Thanks Pavel!