Kettlebell "Enter the Kettlebell" Questions
- Thread starter Kozushi
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Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
Thank you for the advice. That's what I want to do. I'll see how long it takes to get to the 48kg bell.
I'll add that I think adding in C&P drills is helping with my S&S strength in some way or other.
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Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
I reread both books this evening. It's pretty clear upon rereading them that the S&S is the current go-to programme. It was fun tracing the lines of thought from one book to the next.
The idea of two exercises only, a push and a pull comes out of the Power to the People book, continued in the Naked Warrior book. This theory is then applied to kettlebells in Enter the Kettlebell.
Enter the Kettlebell begs some questions:
If the snatch is one of the two staple moves, then why is it only done once a week but the swing twice? Maybe the swing is the real "big pull" move then, and the snatch more of just a test? Anyhow, what does the snatch give you that you can't get in swings and presses anyhow? The extra shoulder exertion is unnecessary as it's already covered in the press. Really, why bother with snatches? So, I think I can guess why the snatch disappears when we move to the S&S book.
The clean: Enter the Kettlebell is not impressed (pardon the pun) with it as a real exercise - it's just a set up move for the press. So, I can see why this move would get dispensed with as we move over to the S&S book.
The press: Awesome exercise, but entirely covered and more by the Turkish Get Up. Enter the Kettlebell lauds what presses do for lats and abdominals, let alone shoulders, but the get up exercises these just as much and really more as the angles change and the body is kept under tension longer.
It's amusing to see the "beginner moves" in Enter the Kettlebell jump ahead to become the Tsars of moves in the S&S book.
I also get (quite possibly mistakenly) the impression that there is more benefit to be had by doing simpler movements with higher weight than trickier movements (where the kettlebell flips over in your hands like in the clean and the snatch) with less weight, as the point is to get stronger not to get better at juggling, hahaha.
I wonder where the next development will take us.
The idea of two exercises only, a push and a pull comes out of the Power to the People book, continued in the Naked Warrior book. This theory is then applied to kettlebells in Enter the Kettlebell.
Enter the Kettlebell begs some questions:
If the snatch is one of the two staple moves, then why is it only done once a week but the swing twice? Maybe the swing is the real "big pull" move then, and the snatch more of just a test? Anyhow, what does the snatch give you that you can't get in swings and presses anyhow? The extra shoulder exertion is unnecessary as it's already covered in the press. Really, why bother with snatches? So, I think I can guess why the snatch disappears when we move to the S&S book.
The clean: Enter the Kettlebell is not impressed (pardon the pun) with it as a real exercise - it's just a set up move for the press. So, I can see why this move would get dispensed with as we move over to the S&S book.
The press: Awesome exercise, but entirely covered and more by the Turkish Get Up. Enter the Kettlebell lauds what presses do for lats and abdominals, let alone shoulders, but the get up exercises these just as much and really more as the angles change and the body is kept under tension longer.
It's amusing to see the "beginner moves" in Enter the Kettlebell jump ahead to become the Tsars of moves in the S&S book.
I also get (quite possibly mistakenly) the impression that there is more benefit to be had by doing simpler movements with higher weight than trickier movements (where the kettlebell flips over in your hands like in the clean and the snatch) with less weight, as the point is to get stronger not to get better at juggling, hahaha.
I wonder where the next development will take us.
Swann 1
Level 6 Valued Member
I think you are dramatically misreading S&S and ETK both if you walked away with the somewhat--no offense--simplistic idea that S&S is somehow a call to dispense with the ROP, that the Clean is an unimpressive exercise, or that the PM of ETK has jumped ahead as "Tsar" over the "juggling" moves of ROP.
Use what is best for you, but I don't think if it was that simple the poll would have equal votes for ROP being superior and equal votes for both being just as good from experienced giraviks. Just urging caution in your assessment.
Use what is best for you, but I don't think if it was that simple the poll would have equal votes for ROP being superior and equal votes for both being just as good from experienced giraviks. Just urging caution in your assessment.
MattH
Level 4 Valued Member
I do ROP with S&S as my variety days. I'm sure it's in ETK that you can use PM on variety days and I see S&S as a more souped up PM so it works for me, the views of TGU's being awesome is right. I do single handed swings when I do S&S and two handed on ROP days. All bases covered! Importantly though, I only train kb's and a little running, I don't have a sport.
When comparing, I think that S&S is a very good general physical preparedness program. With ETK and the ROP you train strength as a skill in its own right. That's not to downplay the strength you can attain in S&S, I just think that ROP maybe doesn't play so well if you do other intense physical training.
Kozushi, seems you've made your mind up that you think S&S is better and if it fits in better with your martial arts training then that's cool. As a former martial artist myself I know how important good recovery is for supplementary training. But don't confuse the exercises, snatches are a formidable full body conditioning exercise (as opposed to a strength building exercise) and the shoulder work a snatch does isn't the same as shoulder work in a TGU. Both a different from presses.
tl;dr - should I do S&S or ROP? The answer is, of course, both!
When comparing, I think that S&S is a very good general physical preparedness program. With ETK and the ROP you train strength as a skill in its own right. That's not to downplay the strength you can attain in S&S, I just think that ROP maybe doesn't play so well if you do other intense physical training.
Kozushi, seems you've made your mind up that you think S&S is better and if it fits in better with your martial arts training then that's cool. As a former martial artist myself I know how important good recovery is for supplementary training. But don't confuse the exercises, snatches are a formidable full body conditioning exercise (as opposed to a strength building exercise) and the shoulder work a snatch does isn't the same as shoulder work in a TGU. Both a different from presses.
tl;dr - should I do S&S or ROP? The answer is, of course, both!
This explained in the book. In brief, more snatching would be too much overhead work given the focus on the press.
You need to do a kettlebell snatch program to appreciate the differences. Many of the people following @aciampa's A + A programs will tell you it's quite different and they feel it's much more beneficial as a single exercise than the swing. I agree - if you are only doing one exercise and choosing between the swing and the snatch, and you're not doing any other exercise, the snatch would be my choice over the swing.
The double kettlebell clean makes a fine conditioning exercise. The single kettlebell clean isn't in S&S because the press isn't, but the clean isn't "dispensed with," just not what we've chosen to do here, much like the snatch isn't what we've chosen to do here.
No - both are a way to put a kettlebell overhead but one is a press while the other is a supporting movement done with the arm straight most of the time.
Have you read this thread?
FAQ: Comparing Kettlebell: Simple & Sinister and the ETK Program Minimum and ROP
You'll find it in the Kettlebell section of the forum, as one of the listings in the Sticky of Stickies post. It addresses this point directly.
@Kozushi, as you see, I resist your attempt to categorize one program or the other as better - they are different, one can easily enough do one, then the other, and even both at the same time as others have observed.
-S-
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
Thank you kindly for the detailed responses!
Here is my problem:
"S&S contains both a Simple and a Sinister goal. Once you've embarked on your S&S journey, stick with it until you have at least reached the Simple goal. That achieved, you may switch to the ROP or you may continue onward to the S&S Sinister goal."
How do I know which one to choose?
I did an Enter the Kettlebell C&P and swing workout this morning for instance.
I suppose I am at this stage of the game:
"one can easily enough do one, then the other, and even both at the same time as others have observed."
It's reassuring that my reading of the books is incorrect. I'm a beginner (only since January) and I appreciate your patience taking the time to answer my beginner's level questions. My instinct to train hard from 30 years of judo I'm putting into kettlebells now - I'm kind of nuts, but that's me.
I'm eager to meet the Rite of Passage challenge with the 24 for the snatches and eventually a 48 for the One Rep Maximum for the clean and press. So far my one rep max I think is only the 32, so lots of room for improvement. I'll give the snatch test a try soon and see how that goes. I'm optimistic.
Here is my problem:
"S&S contains both a Simple and a Sinister goal. Once you've embarked on your S&S journey, stick with it until you have at least reached the Simple goal. That achieved, you may switch to the ROP or you may continue onward to the S&S Sinister goal."
How do I know which one to choose?
I did an Enter the Kettlebell C&P and swing workout this morning for instance.
I suppose I am at this stage of the game:
"one can easily enough do one, then the other, and even both at the same time as others have observed."
It's reassuring that my reading of the books is incorrect. I'm a beginner (only since January) and I appreciate your patience taking the time to answer my beginner's level questions. My instinct to train hard from 30 years of judo I'm putting into kettlebells now - I'm kind of nuts, but that's me.
I'm eager to meet the Rite of Passage challenge with the 24 for the snatches and eventually a 48 for the One Rep Maximum for the clean and press. So far my one rep max I think is only the 32, so lots of room for improvement. I'll give the snatch test a try soon and see how that goes. I'm optimistic.
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
Shall do!
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
My post above was my reading of the books, not how I myself feel about the moves. I love both programmes!
I think both is best for me. I personally feel the benefits of the clean and I love the way the clean and press is a whole body exercise. I'm terrifically enthusiastic about it. I've been doing the C&P and snatches daily for the past 3 weeks after getting the Enter the Kettlebell book - at first without doing S&S (due to a sore back) but then along with it. The snatch does feel different than the swing, and more happens than in the swing as I have to balance it at the end with some clever manipulation - all very good for physical awareness, stabilizer muscles, and mental acuity.
This goes to show why these forums are so priceless. Without getting answers here I would have felt that I should focus only on progressing in S&S and to not develop the C&P or the snatch.
Hahaha, I suppose reaching both programmes' goals is still a long way off for me. One hand swinging and also pressing 48 seems a VERY long way off at this point!
FUN!
@Kozushi,
Do one program to completion and then switch - don't do one workout from one program then switch programs. E.g., you could switch between the ROP and S&S every 3 months or every 6 months.
If you have not achieved the Simple goal of S&S, then I will give you instructions to follow.
Follow S&S until you achieve Simple. Do only S&S, do it by the book, 5-7 days per week.
Once you're achieved Simple, switch to the ROP.
Once you've met the ROP goals, switch back to S&S and pursue Sinister.
-S-
Do one program to completion and then switch - don't do one workout from one program then switch programs. E.g., you could switch between the ROP and S&S every 3 months or every 6 months.
If you have not achieved the Simple goal of S&S, then I will give you instructions to follow.
Follow S&S until you achieve Simple. Do only S&S, do it by the book, 5-7 days per week.
Once you're achieved Simple, switch to the ROP.
Once you've met the ROP goals, switch back to S&S and pursue Sinister.
-S-
Marino
Level 5 Valued Member
I would echo what Steve Freides says there. I got to Simple, then went on in the direction of Sinister. I got as far as meeting the volume and time goals with the 44kg and was working with the 48kg for swings and get ups. It always bugged me that my press lagged behind the get up so I moved to a press focused program without reaching Sinister. In my view if you get to the ROP goals, you will find that you are a long way towards getting to the Sinister goals. I'm not sure the same is true in reverse.
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
Thank you both. At the moment I can do the S&S programme very smoothly and in good time with the 32 BUT I am still doing the swings two handed.
Gosh, I really am wordy and ask too many question don't I? I do have one more though, sorry. When I switch back later from ROP to S&S, what do I do about my new found pressing skills - let them wither and wilt, or do I keep them up with drills every so often, or does it become a moot point at that stage? Sorry, the question ought to be asked later, but I like everything organized in advance - I guess I am a bit OCD, hahaha.
Gosh, I really am wordy and ask too many question don't I? I do have one more though, sorry. When I switch back later from ROP to S&S, what do I do about my new found pressing skills - let them wither and wilt, or do I keep them up with drills every so often, or does it become a moot point at that stage? Sorry, the question ought to be asked later, but I like everything organized in advance - I guess I am a bit OCD, hahaha.
MattM
SFG1
Why?
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
I was doing them 1 handed in the spring but hurt my back a bit a few weeks ago while trying to reprogress to single handed swings too quickly. I'm not happy that I have to do them 2 handed; 1 handed is at least to me quite a different and a much better exercise, and if I'm not wrong, the true "heart" of Pavel's system.
MattH
Level 4 Valued Member
Does Pavel not cover the difference between one and two handed swings in S&S? I'm sure he does... And I'm sure to progress in S&S properly it calls for one handed swings...
I'll just echo Steve Friedes, get them looked at by someone who knows how to dissect then and find your problems. Not me though! I'm no coach or instructor!
I'll just echo Steve Friedes, get them looked at by someone who knows how to dissect then and find your problems. Not me though! I'm no coach or instructor!
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