Kettlebell "Enter the Kettlebell" Questions

[MattH]

Why not do both? I'd argue that they're both different exercises therefore both have their place. I do ROP, so I do both, as per the book.(Edit - I'm just comparing the actual exercises here, rather than commenting on using the different weights...)

You seem a little preoccupied with finding the 'best' exercises? Why not just stick to ones that you can do, and do consistently, and not get bored with, and not second guess. I'd worry less about individual exercises as you've asked here, and more about programmes that you could do (which you've had some excellent advice for over the last few days!).

 

[Steve Freides]

What's a better exercise - the snatch with the 24kg bell or the swing with the 32kg bell?

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

-S-

 

[Kozushi]

Why not do both? I'd argue that they're both different exercises therefore both have their place. I do ROP, so I do both, as per the book.(Edit - I'm just comparing the actual exercises here, rather than commenting on using the different weights...)

You seem a little preoccupied with finding the 'best' exercises? Why not just stick to ones that you can do, and do consistently, and not get bored with, and not second guess. I'd worry less about individual exercises as you've asked here, and more about programmes that you could do (which you've had some excellent advice for over the last few days!).

I've already got my programme laid out - Simple, then ROP, then back to Sinister. I'm curious about the effects of the exercises. Based on this response and the "one hand clapping" response, hehehe, I can see that again I am thinking incorrectly.

 

[John Grahill]

Kozushi, if concerns over the effects of the exercises is a concern then I have a suggestion. Try both and see which one benefits you most. For me I didn't really think certain movements/drills did a whole lot for me but the clean and press really helped me over the years, as did front squats, snatches and trap bar deadlifts.

Try and see.

 

[Kozushi]

Since I've been working on my pressing (C&P) for the past month or so, I think the gains have been impressive (pun wasn't intended but I noticed it afterwards). Given also that it does not take long to do a press workout, it's fun, and quite easy in a lot of ways, I'm stunned at how great an exercise it is. Also, the clean and press movement activates, I think someone said, all the major muscles of the body. So, to get so much out of so little time investment, is just fabulous. Now I understand why someone would want to get a stronger press.

Regarding the snatches, what weight do you use for them? I swing the 32kg bell (I can do the 40 with two hands but not with one only yet) but the highest I can safely go with snatches is 24kg, which I read is the ideal weight anyhow according to Enter the Kettlebell.

 

[John Grahill]

Well snatching a 24kg 200 times in ten minutes is the other goal of the ROP. Is it the"ideal" weight, I don't know. It depends on what you are shooting for. Eventually you will be able to handle more. Ideal weight, not sure as the way I increased my snatching ability with the 24 was to use a heavier bell and it did increase my numbers with the 24.


Returning to the ROP for me is not to achieve its goals as a beginner would or as I did years ago but rather simply to use a tried and true program.

My new goal is to use the ROP to increase my single bell pressing ability and achieve 100 snatches in five minutes with a 32. I can currently press the beast which is my half body weight but I want more reps with it. I haven't snatched much in the past few years, concentrating on the double press, jerks, push presses, etc. so it will be a challenge for me. Plus I'm over 50, so it's fun for sure.

 

[Kozushi]

I'd better be able to keep doing this stuff over 50, and 60, and 70, and somehow into my 80s or I'll feel cheated.

You're a lot stronger than I am!

Do you follow the weekly schedule as outlined in the Enter the Kettlebell book, or do you focus instead on goals and design your own schedule? I wonder.

 

[Anna C]

What's a better exercise - the snatch with the 24kg bell or the swing with the 32kg bell?

I've done a few thousand 24kg snatches, AND 32kg 1H swings in the A+A protocols over the last year or so. Keeping in mind that these observations are about the exercise, not the programming (A+A is very different programming than S&S and ROP), I'll say as a sweeping generalization that the swings seemed to develop the back of my body, and the snatches the front. And doing the swings first was surely necessary, because I feel like it was important to work on the back (posterior chain) before too much focus on the front. Would anyone agree with that?

Specifically, the swings developed the rear delts, traps, rhomboids, erector spinae, glutes, and hamstrings. The snatches used all those as well, but also developed the front delts, biceps, and quads. They both seemed to develop (although in slightly different ways) the forearms, hands/grip, lats, abs, obliques, and calves. The snatches also seemed to tie the anterior chain together -- the abs, hip flexors, quads all working together to bring tension and strength to the front of the body.

One other thing I'll say about snatches... some of us fall into the trap of thinking of snatches as a conditioning tool (as in the 5-min test or the 10-min SSST). They don't have to be so. They can be programmed just like swings, or many different ways. Think "strength and power" and "technique".... in contrast to (or at least, before) "as many reps as possible."

OK, another thing I'll say about snatches... you can't cheat them. There's a minimum amount of power required to get the bell overhead. There's really no minimum power in swings... and most will admit, some days you put in more power than others. Snatches will keep you honest.

 

[Kozushi]

I've done a few thousand 24kg snatches, AND 32kg 1H swings in the A+A protocols over the last year or so. Keeping in mind that these observations are about the exercise, not the programming (A+A is very different programming than S&S and ROP), I'll say as a sweeping generalization that the swings seemed to develop the back of my body, and the snatches the front. And doing the swings first was surely necessary, because I feel like it was important to work on the back (posterior chain) before too much focus on the front. Would anyone agree with that?

Specifically, the swings developed the rear delts, traps, rhomboids, erector spinae, glutes, and hamstrings. The snatches used all those as well, but also developed the front delts, biceps, and quads. They both seemed to develop (although in slightly different ways) the forearms, hands/grip, lats, abs, obliques, and calves. The snatches also seemed to tie the anterior chain together -- the abs, hip flexors, quads all working together to bring tension and strength to the front of the body.

One other thing I'll say about snatches... some of us fall into the trap of thinking of snatches as a conditioning tool (as in the 5-min test or the 10-min SSST). They don't have to be so. They can be programmed just like swings, or many different ways. Think "strength and power" and "technique".... in contrast to (or at least, before) "as many reps as possible."

OK, another thing I'll say about snatches... you can't cheat them. There's a minimum amount of power required to get the bell overhead. There's really no minimum power in swings... and most will admit, some days you put in more power than others. Snatches will keep you honest.

Very cool! So you've done a lot of work with exactly both the 32kg swing and the 24kg snatch! Perfect! Thank you for sharing your expertise!

I was getting a bit woried about giving up the power development of the 10X10 32kg swings of S&S for the endurance themed 200 snatches in 10 minutes goal for the ROP programme. If the snatch functions also as a power activity, but balanced more between front and back sides of the body, that's sounding quite appealing, in fact. I was going to do it anyhow, but now I feel a lot better about it reading what you wrote.

I am going to have to reread part of Enter the Kettlebell to design my ROP programme in such a way as to keep as much of the S&S stuff going as possible. I guess the worry is overtraining, and being new to this I'm being very cautious about that. (That worry underlies my lurry of questions the past month.)

Gosh this stuff is fascinating!

 

[MikeTheBear]

OK, another thing I'll say about snatches... you can't cheat them. There's a minimum amount of power required to get the bell overhead. There's really no minimum power in swings... and most will admit, some days you put in more power than others. Snatches will keep you honest.

This is why I think snatches are harder than swings. I would say that 24 kg snatches and 32 kg swings are about equal in terms of perceived exertion.

 

[Kozushi]

This is why I think snatches are harder than swings. I would say that 24 kg snatches and 32 kg swings are about equal in terms of perceived exertion.

THANK YOU! That is a very helpful observation! So I'm not losing anything really going from 32kg swings to 24kg snatches. Thank you!

 

[Anna C]

If the snatch functions also as a power activity, but balanced more between front and back sides of the body

I would agree with that, however...

So I'm not losing anything really going from 32kg swings to 24kg snatches.

My discussion doesn't take the programming into account. So you can't just swap one out for the other (for example, snatches instead of swings while doing S&S) without "messing up the recipe" of the program, so to speak. Also, I did feel like it was important to really develop a powerful swing before going to these heavy snatches. See this thread: "Lazy Endurance" swing protocol - how it went

I would say that 24 kg snatches and 32 kg swings are about equal in terms of perceived exertion.

I would agree with that, too, although there could be some gender difference there.

Gosh this stuff is fascinating!

+1!

 

[Kozushi]

I'm switching over to ROP for a while and then eventually back to S&S to go to the sinister goal. I wouldn't be replacing the S&S swings with snatches.

 

[MikeTheBear]

THANK YOU! That is a very helpful observation! So I'm not losing anything really going from 32kg swings to 24kg snatches. Thank you!

I initially based this on "perceived exertion" but it has some support from physiology. In Olympic lifting, the snatch is always going to be lower than the clean. Why? Because the snatch must be pulled higher. For the same power output, the snatch weight will be lower because it must travel higher. A good Olympic lifter will generally snatch 80% of what the lifter can clean.

With kettlebells, the snatch also must be pulled higher than a swing. If we say that the swing is about the equivalent of a clean in terms of power, a 24 kg snatch is about 80% of a 32 kg swing. So yes, these lifts should be fairly comparable in terms of power output.

 

[John Grahill]

Anna is on the money regarding snatches in my opinion. Don't limit them to just lighter weights and conditioning as they can be a tremendous strength movement in lower reps. I trained dumbbell swings (similar to kettlebell snatches) a while back doing singles and got fairly strong in them. Doing heavier snatches and getting stronger in them had a positive carryover for me.

 

[MattM]

@Kozushi Are you doing S&S with 2 handed swings still?

 

[Kozushi]

@Kozushi Are you doing S&S with 2 handed swings still?

On ambitious days I just do 1 handed swings with the 32kg. On days I feel less ambitious I add in some 2 handed swings, so I haven't "owned" the simple requirements yet, but I can certainly do all the movements one handed in the required time when I test myself.

 

[masa]

@Kozushi; in my honest opinion you should own the simple standards and only then move on to something else, say ROP. Snatches can be very taxing for the beginner and even dangerous for your joints when done incorrectly. I think by doing the S&S you will prepare yourself better for the ROP. That's why there was PM in the ETK book. By swapping the swings for snatches in S&S you'll put your shoulders for awful a lot of load. Jumping from a program to another all the time will not take you anywhere. Get strong first.

 

[Kozushi]

Yes, I've been noticing how hard the snatches are on the shoulders and also on the skin of the hands. I haven't planned on swapping them though, but progressing. One problem is that S&S is too excellent to want to give it up. Anyhow, I haven't gotten good enough at the Simple requirements to move onto the ROP system. The get up is an amazing full body exercise - ditching that for the press doesn't make sense to me. Anyhow, onwards and upwards.

Paying attention to how I feel while and after working out these days, I really think the snatch with the 24kg is a much lighter exercise than the swing with the 32kg. It's exactly what the books say - the snatch is a strength-endurance move and the heavy swing a power move.

I have an added card to play however, since I was lucky enough to test out the effectiveness of the S&S system in some pretty heavy judo fighting, and I can tell you that endurance was NO PROBLEM for me at all. S&S covered any kind of endurance issues splendidly. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the TGU is a strength-endurance exercise.

 

[masa]

@Kozushi; it's nice that you weigh things and search answers well.