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A+A/AXE low HR

Paotle

Level 4 Valued Member
Hello,

I do EMOM training according to the Strongfirst modalities described in AXE.

I did 2 sessions:

15*(5swings)+15*(5 power pushups). Alterning. Average HR 97, MHR 135. Total time : 30 minutes

16*2 hacksquat at 60%1RM+ 16*3 OHPa t 60%1RM. Alterning. Average HR 95, MHR 113. Total time 32 minutes

As seen, I'm using the weights prescribed by Pavel, but the heart rate remains too low. How do I get an endurance effect? Increase the weights? Reduce the rest time?

Best,
Paotle
 
Paotle said:
Hello,

I do EMOM training according to the Strongfirst modalities described in AXE.

I did 2 sessions:

15*(5swings)+15*(5 power pushups). Alterning. Average HR 97, MHR 135. Total time : 30 minutes

16*2 hacksquat at 60%1RM+ 16*3 OHPa t 60%1RM. Alterning. Average HR 95, MHR 113. Total time 32 minutes

As seen, I'm using the weights prescribed by Pavel, but the heart rate remains too low. How do I get an endurance effect? Increase the weights? Reduce the rest time?

Best,
Paotle
Click to expand...
Do you know what your actual AeT and AnT are?
 
offwidth said:
Do you know what your actual AeT and AnT are?
Click to expand...
Thanks for your answer.
It's been a while since I last tested it, but 3 years ago it was:
AeT: 144
AnT: 164
The AeT test was not made in lab, but by Pa:Hr decoupling (following Uphill athlete protocol).

So the mean HR of my 2 workouts are about 45-50 below my AeT.
I didn't sweat.

Best,
 
Paotle said:
Thanks for your answer.
It's been a while since I last tested it, but 3 years ago it was:
AeT: 144
AnT: 164
The AeT test was not made in lab, but by Pa:Hr decoupling (following Uphill athlete protocol).

So the mean HR of my 2 workouts are about 45-50 below my AeT.
I didn't sweat.

Best,
Click to expand...
Maybe you just have a really, really good cardio system.

I’ve noticed pretty much the same type of results that you have when I started AXE (by the book).
I will be incorporating other non-traditional ‘cardio’ to augment my more standard locomotive endurance activities.

I will be interested in seeing answers from other people.
 
Paotle said:
How do I get an endurance effect?
Click to expand...
When you say "an endurance effect", which of these more accurately describes what you are after?
  1. A cardiovascular fitness improvement stimulus from the training session, and resulting measurable improvement over time to VO2max or some other aerobic fitness marker
  2. A strength endurance fitness improvement from the training session, and resulting improvement in the ability to continue to do moderately hard work for a period of time (i.e. a able to do more total work, and/or go a longer time doing the same work before hitting StrongFirst stop signs or some other parameter)
  3. A work capacity fitness improvement from the training session, and a resulting improvement in the amount of work done in the same time, i.e. within 30 minutes or some other measured time period
Or, even outside of "endurance effect", something else like skill, strength, power, or readiness to complete a specific task.

I think "EMOM training according to the Strongfirst modalities described in AXE" can get potentially be used for any/all of these, but what parameters you modify (if you need to modify any at all) can be better targeted if you describe your objective.
 
offwidth said:
Maybe you just have a really, really good cardio system.

I’ve noticed pretty much the same type of results that you have when I started AXE (by the book).
I will be incorporating other non-traditional ‘cardio’ to augment my more standard locomotive endurance activities.

I will be interested in seeing answers from other people.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your reply. No, I don't have a great cardiovascular system.
Although I have an RHR of 48, I tire very quickly when I go running or cycling. I was always bad at endurance. I was an HS 100-200m sprinter, very fast twitch (3m10/10ft, 2 inches standing broad jump).
 
Anna C said:
When you say "an endurance effect", which of these more accurately describes what you are after?
  1. A cardiovascular fitness improvement stimulus from the training session, and resulting measurable improvement over time to VO2max or some other aerobic fitness marker
  2. A strength endurance fitness improvement from the training session, and resulting improvement in the ability to continue to do moderately hard work for a period of time (i.e. a able to do more total work, and/or go a longer time doing the same work before hitting StrongFirst stop signs or some other parameter)
  3. A work capacity fitness improvement from the training session, and a resulting improvement in the amount of work done in the same time, i.e. within 30 minutes or some other measured time period
Or, even outside of "endurance effect", something else like skill, strength, power, or readiness to complete a specific task.

I think "EMOM training according to the Strongfirst modalities described in AXE" can get potentially be used for any/all of these, but what parameters you modify (if you need to modify any at all) can be better targeted if you describe your objective.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your answer.
Above all, I want to improve my cardiovascular health (fitness).
Running and cycling (even well below AeT, as low as 95 watts) make me tired and fatigued for 1-2 days after it. I do some stepups and it helps, but I have always this fatigue in my legs. As said before, I'm a fast twitch guy and locomotive endurance training is just crushing me.
 
Steve Freides said:
You might try sticking exclusively to ballistic/explosive movements. Also consider if you're really putting into them the kind of effort described in the book.

-S-
Click to expand...
Thanks. Yes, I had that idea too. I have the impression that 'grind' movements, even if they're done explosively with little weight, don't provide as much cardiovascular stimulation as 'naturally' explosive movements.
 
Paotle said:
Thanks. Yes, I had that idea too. I have the impression that 'grind' movements, even if they're done explosively with little weight, don't provide as much cardiovascular stimulation as 'naturally' explosive movements.
Click to expand...
The great thing about a swing is that you can put a wide variety of efforts into it.

Paotle said:
I'm a fast twitch guy and locomotive endurance training is just crushing me.
Click to expand...
Whenever I had a layoff from running, I always started up again by running a brisk 1/2 mile twice a day and then gradually easing into endurance - I never felt like an endurance athlete, the fact that I tried for 25 years not withstanding.

-S-
 
Paotle said:
Thanks for your answer.
Above all, I want to improve my cardiovascular health (fitness).
Running and cycling (even well below AeT, as low as 95 watts) make me tired and fatigued for 1-2 days after it. I do some stepups and it helps, but I have always this fatigue in my legs. As said before, I'm a fast twitch guy and locomotive endurance training is just crushing me.
Click to expand...

Good! Why not do AXE with swings exactly as the program outlines? That's probably the ideal way!

I feel like I got a lot of endurance (of all types) when I was doing A+A (now AXE) swing protocols. Heavy set, rest, repeat... over and over. It did a lot for me (see page 38 of the book :) )

Also recommended in the program is some LISS cardio. Rucking might be perfect for your needs, but there are lots of ways to get that in.
 
Paotle said:
Hello,

I do EMOM training according to the Strongfirst modalities described in AXE.

I did 2 sessions:

15*(5swings)+15*(5 power pushups). Alterning. Average HR 97, MHR 135. Total time : 30 minutes

16*2 hacksquat at 60%1RM+ 16*3 OHPa t 60%1RM. Alterning. Average HR 95, MHR 113. Total time 32 minutes

As seen, I'm using the weights prescribed by Pavel, but the heart rate remains too low. How do I get an endurance effect? Increase the weights? Reduce the rest time?

Best,
Paotle
Click to expand...
As long as you pass the talk test, I think there is nothing to worry about. Maybe skip the pushups. And AXE is not only about HR, but about instilling mitochondria through other mechanisms.

BTW, relative to your RHR your heart rate gets elevated more than 100% on average.

But I can relate: When I compare my HR to those of others posting on this forum, it is usually much lower. I think I have never reached the "red" zone in the Polar app, and very seldom do I touch the "yellow zone". When I tried rucking, my HR never went above 90. When I cycle with my wife, my HR is 20 beats lower although I tend to begin to sweat faster. When I did a run with a friend, my HR was lower than his, although he is much more trained in running than I am, and even runs ultra marathons (whereas I have never run more than 60 minutes). So there is a lot of individual variation.

If you want to raise the heart for a pure "cardio" effect, then try some different modalities and find something that works for you, and lets you ease into it.

However, as I learned from the book "Slow Jogging", you receive a lot of health and even performance benefits from lower tempo and HR anyway.
 
@Paotle my RHR is typically the same as yours, 48BPM. For context, I have a background in ultramarathons even though I haven't run one in a few years.

I have just analyzed my two most recent AXE sessions (5 snatches OTM with a 24kg bell). Both sessions done at the same time of the day in similar conditions:
  • 250 reps in 50 minutes: MHR 159; Avg HR 135
  • 100 reps in 20 minutes: MHR 148; Avg HR 126
Both my MHR and Avg HR increase the longer the session.
 
Interesting thread. I was also wondering about this after my last two AXE session!

For context, I do not consider myself particularly strong nor particularly enduring. (1.5xBW squat, 2xBW deadlift, 0.4xBW kettlebell press, 1h52 half marathon – you get the picture)

BW: 86kg, HRrest ~50, HR max: 215 (high I know), AnT: ~189

My last two AXE workouts:
  • 40 repeats, 6 single-arm swings on the minute (alternating) @40kg – HRavg: 155, HRM 180
  • 40 repeats, 6 two-arm swings on the minute @48kg – HRavg: 127, HRM 156
It seems like I'm only getting close to the threshold sometime in the latter half to quarter of the session. And I have zero issues with the talk test on each set.

In summary, I've been swinging a 0.46-0.55 BW kettlebell for the full 40mins, and I'm not really sure I'm getting into the desired physiological zone as described in AXE.

I suppose the first bit of feedback that comes to mind is that I should be working towards the hand to hand swings, but it seems to me that that I'll be hitting the technique ceiling long before encountering any of the physiological stop signs.

Any thoughts are most welcome. Thanks!
 
Yes, it's the same.
My average HR is higher during a (bodybuilding) session with sets of 6-8 repetitions (close to failure) and 2 minutes rest than during A+A/AXE.
 
Paotle said:
15*(5swings)+15*(5 power pushups). Alterning. Average HR 97, MHR 135. Total time : 30 minutes
Click to expand...
Try doing these every 30 seconds instead of OTM:

:00 - 3-5 Swings
:30 - 3 Pushups
1:00 - 3-5 Swings
1:30 - 3 Pushups
Etc.

20-40 Rounds/Minutes

Paotle said:
16*2 hacksquat at 60%1RM+ 16*3 OHPa t 60%1RM. Alterning. Average HR 95, MHR 113. Total time 32 minutes
Click to expand...
If using grinds, you'll definitely need to increase the intensity (weight) to 70-90%.

I usually use 80-90% (85-87%) weights for 2-3 reps.

Perform 1-3 reps EMOTM for 20-30 minutes.
 
Paotle said:
Hello,

I do EMOM training according to the Strongfirst modalities described in AXE.

I did 2 sessions:

15*(5swings)+15*(5 power pushups). Alterning. Average HR 97, MHR 135. Total time : 30 minutes

16*2 hacksquat at 60%1RM+ 16*3 OHPa t 60%1RM. Alterning. Average HR 95, MHR 113. Total time 32 minutes

As seen, I'm using the weights prescribed by Pavel, but the heart rate remains too low. How do I get an endurance effect? Increase the weights? Reduce the rest time?

Best,
Paotle
Click to expand...

I would suggest sticking to the program as outlined in the book but add an extra stimulus by doubling the reps every fifth set.

E.g., H2H Swing, 4 reps OTM, every 5th set complete 8x reps. E.g., Sets 1= 4x, 2= 4x, 3= 4, 4= 4, 5= 8x, 6= 4, 7= 4, 8= 4, 9= 4, 10=8x, etc.

This will raise your HR a bit, then the following 4 sets it will stabilize, but at a slightly higher avg. HR than the first 4 sets before the next double dose of swings.
Continue until you cannot pass the talk test or your HR meets/exceeds your AnT or you complete 40:00 minutes.

Preform one of these sessions every THIRD training session. (Do not abuse it by doing it too often)
When you have successfully completed two such sessions reaching 40 minutes, its time to increase to 6 reps OTM.

Repeat the process again with 6 reps OTM and 12 reps every 5th set. When you have successfully completed this its time to increase your bell size 8kg and start over with 4 reps.

I have extensively tested this method myself and with many of my students and it works extreamly well.
 
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