Accessory exercices vs Compound

[Wa7ch]

Whats up guys

Knowing the difference between compound exercices (Squat, Deadlift, Bench etc..) vs accessory exercices (Dumbell curls,, Wrist curls, Pull ups etc.. ),
If i'm planning on training strength only, would it be accurate to do the 6 reps per set range with big weights, or is it only appropriate for compounds.

Because it makes sense to squat 160 lbs for 6 reps instead of 135 for 12 reps if i'm going for strength.

But does it make sense to curl 32 lbs for 6 reps instead of 26 lbs for 12 reps?

Will my bicep really develop strength with 6 reps range? If so, do i even need that strength, considering my main focus is Squat, Deadlift, Bench, none of which require a powerful bicep?

 

[John K]

Whats up guys

Knowing the difference between compound exercices (Squat, Deadlift, Bench etc..) vs accessory exercices (Dumbell curls,, Wrist curls, Pull ups etc.. ),

This isn't a real difference. Accessory exercises can still be compounds. There is a difference between Main Lift, Supplemental Lift, and Accessory Lift. Main lift is obviously the lifts you are trying to improve - such as squat bench deadlift for powerlifting - and are obviously compound. However, supplemental lifts are lifts that are used that are known to directly build the main lift - for example, you know when you increase your stiff legged deadlift your deadlift goes up, this would be a good supplemental lift.

Accessory lifts are supportive, and the goal is to either balance/support training, or are known to build the supplemental lift. These can still be compound exercises. Common accessory exercises for powerlifting include curls, rows, face pulls, and pulldowns/pull-ups. At the very least we would still call rows and pulldowns/ups compound - but they serve a supporting roll, and rarely does getting better at them directly improve your main lift.

If i'm planning on training strength only, would it be accurate to do the 6 reps per set range with big weights, or is it only appropriate for compounds.

It depends. For things like rows and pullups, yes. For supplemental lifts - yes. For some isolation exercises, yes, if you feel you still get a good stimulus from them. For others - like lateral raises or face pulls - going that low rarely is a good idea. But you have to keep the goal the goal.
Things to think about: Why are you doing this lift? What is the purpose? What will give you a good stimulus without contributing to fatigue that will negatively effect your main lifts?

Because it makes sense to squat 160 lbs for 6 reps instead of 135 for 12 reps if i'm going for strength.

I'm going to side step this so I don't start another needless internet war, just know that not everyone agrees with that, and that on a fundamental level if you go from squatting 135 for 12 to 225 for 12... you got stronger.

But does it make sense to curl 32 lbs for 6 reps instead of 26 lbs for 12 reps?

See above things to think about. If you're curling 32s for 6s and after a couple weeks you get that to 8s, and you're not feeling it in your joints, and it isn't negatively effecting your other lifts... not the worst place to start. Now, curls for heavy triples? Nah fam.

Will my bicep really develop strength with 6 reps range?

Yes.

If so, do i even need that strength, considering my main focus is Squat, Deadlift, Bench, none of which require a powerful bicep?

Maybe. This is about supportive work. I would probably err on lighter and more reps, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't or can't. I would suggest prioritizing things like rows over curls, and then doing a couple sets of 10-15 of curls at the end of your training session.

 

[Antti]

Low reps are perfectly fine.

 

[Wa7ch]

This isn't a real difference. Accessory exercises can still be compounds. There is a difference between Main Lift, Supplemental Lift, and Accessory Lift. Main lift is obviously the lifts you are trying to improve - such as squat bench deadlift for powerlifting - and are obviously compound. However, supplemental lifts are lifts that are used that are known to directly build the main lift - for example, you know when you increase your stiff legged deadlift your deadlift goes up, this would be a good supplemental lift.

Accessory lifts are supportive, and the goal is to either balance/support training, or are known to build the supplemental lift. These can still be compound exercises. Common accessory exercises for powerlifting include curls, rows, face pulls, and pulldowns/pull-ups. At the very least we would still call rows and pulldowns/ups compound - but they serve a supporting roll, and rarely does getting better at them directly improve your main lift.

It depends. For things like rows and pullups, yes. For supplemental lifts - yes. For some isolation exercises, yes, if you feel you still get a good stimulus from them. For others - like lateral raises or face pulls - going that low rarely is a good idea. But you have to keep the goal the goal.
Things to think about: Why are you doing this lift? What is the purpose? What will give you a good stimulus without contributing to fatigue that will negatively effect your main lifts?

I'm going to side step this so I don't start another needless internet war, just know that not everyone agrees with that, and that on a fundamental level if you go from squatting 135 for 12 to 225 for 12... you got stronger.

See above things to think about. If you're curling 32s for 6s and after a couple weeks you get that to 8s, and you're not feeling it in your joints, and it isn't negatively effecting your other lifts... not the worst place to start. Now, curls for heavy triples? Nah fam.

Yes.

Maybe. This is about supportive work. I would probably err on lighter and more reps, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't or can't. I would suggest prioritizing things like rows over curls, and then doing a couple sets of 10-15 of curls at the end of your training session.

Alright i guess i'll stick with low reps/ big weight for every exercice, if it gives good strength results, all while reducing stress on joints and ligament .

 

[Wa7ch]

I know that doing higher reps with the same weight means you got stronger, but if my goal is to just lift a very big weight once (PR), then it's totally logical to do low rep/ big weights, just wanted to make sure if it's fine to do it for every single muscle group and exercise

 

[Wa7ch]

@John K Do you have any good exercises for pure grip strength?

 

[3letterslong]

I think Westside has a really good system set up if you want to do those isolation lifts for high reps.

Goal lift
Accessory lift
Supplemental work

The supplemental work is the isolation exercises done for high reps. Most people use them for bodybuilding, but Louis had indicated their actual goal was to keep the joints as healthy and strong as possible. This can look identical to bodybuilding work, you just have to be aware of the intent behind them because it can also go astray really easily.

 

[John K]

Alright i guess i'll stick with low reps/ big weight for every exercice, if it gives good strength results, all while reducing stress on joints and ligament .

The key is "reducing stress on joints and ligaments." If you stick with low reps/big weight and you don't find that is true, switch it up.

I know that doing higher reps with the same weight means you got stronger, but if my goal is to just lift a very big weight once (PR), then it's totally logical to do low rep/ big weights, just wanted to make sure if it's fine to do it for every single muscle group and exercise

Sure, you can run that until you can't - either you feel like crap constantly, things start hurting, or you stall out and can no longer progress. Then you need a change.

@John K Do you have any good exercises for pure grip strength?

I'm not a grip guy. I've found deadlifts, farmer's carries, and kettlebell ballistics to be good enough for me.

I would also like to reiterate that as a beginner it would be a really good idea to find a good program (like has been suggested in another of your threads) and follow it.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

But does it make sense to curl 32 lbs for 6 reps instead of 26 lbs for 12 reps?

High Rep Training

High Rep training integral part of a week written Strength Training Program.

MUSCULAR ADAPTATIONS TO COMBINATIONS OF HIGH- AND LOW-INTENSITY RESISTANCE EXERCISES
Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 2004, 18(4), 730–737 q 2004 National Strength & Conditioning Association
https://paulogentil.com/pdf/Muscular%20Adaptations%20to%20Combinations%20of%20High-%20and%20Low-Intensity%20Resistance%20Exercises.pdf

The present results demonstrated the effects of an additional set of low-intensity exercise immediately after a high-intensity, low-repetition exercise in gaining muscular strength and endurance, suggesting its usefulness in the strength protocol.

You'll get more progression if you do a long set at the end of a training session'

You'll get more progression if you do a long set at the end of a training session

If you train for strength, and do sets with heavy weights and few reps, you'll build up more muscle mass and strength by finishing your workout with one set using less weight but more reps. Sports scientists at the University of Tsukuba wrote about this in 2004 in the Journal of Strength and...

www.ergo-log.com

If you train for strength, and do sets with heavy weights and few reps, you'll build up more muscle mass and strength by finishing your workout with one set using less weight but more reps.

How Ultra High Rep (25+) Sets Can Improve Your Strength and Size | BarBend

...If you use them the right way, ultra high reps can lead to huge gains in the squat, bench, and deadlift.

Ultra-High Rep Set Guidelines​

First, you probably only want to use this method with assistance exercises.

..You’ll want to choose simple movements that target your lagging muscle groups. Generally, these are going to be the ones that give out first when you’re performing compound lifts.

Will my bicep really develop strength with 6 reps range? If so, do i even need that strength, considering my main focus is Squat, Deadlift, Bench, none of which require a powerful bicep?

Biceps

The Biceps are heavily involve in most Pulling Movements: Lat Pulldowns, Bent Over Rows, Pull Ups, Upright Rows, etc.

The Biceps obtain more than enough work in these movement.

Thus, Bicep Training does little for a Squat, Bench Press, Deadlift.

 

[silveraw]

@John K Do you have any good exercises for pure grip strength?

What kind of grip strength are we talking about?

 

[Abishai]

Whats up guys

Knowing the difference between compound exercices (Squat, Deadlift, Bench etc..) vs accessory exercices (Dumbell curls,, Wrist curls, Pull ups etc.. ),

Pullups are compound

 

[Hung]

Will my bicep really develop strength with 6 reps range? If so, do i even need that strength, considering my main focus is Squat, Deadlift, Bench, none of which require a powerful bicep?

In the powerlifts, some muscles act as the main movers (glutes/adductor/quads/chest/delt/triceps), some act as the stabilizer (biceps, rear delt, abductor, midsection...), some are in-between (upper back, lats and hamstring)
For the stabilizer muscles, most of veteran lifters train it with higher rep range (>8). Personally I do sets of 6 with hamstring curls and biceps curl but it because I never like to do curl.

 

[Alan Mackey]

I know that doing higher reps with the same weight means you got stronger, but if my goal is to just lift a very big weight once (PR), then it's totally logical to do low rep/ big weights, just wanted to make sure if it's fine to do it for every single muscle group and exercise

It doesn't really work that way.

Most powerlifters, whose actual work is chasing PRs, train like bodybuilders during a significant period of their contest preparation. The bigger the engine (muscles cross-section), the bigger the potential to develop strength.

Is it fine to train using low reps exclusively? Yes.

Is it optimal? No.

 

[Ege]

Since you are looking for accessory curls as well, I assume you chase hypertrophy as well as strength.

You might wanna check Fabio’s articles in SF site, and his built strong programs in strongandfit website.

Some preach by accessory lifts. I respect that, but saving your energy for compounds will bring most bang for the buck for majority IMO. What will be the arm size difference of a person who devotes all focus to compound push, pulls versus some body sparing some of the focus to isolation exercises? Is it half an inch tops? But what about the hypertrophy and strength that you leave on table for the other parts of the upper body by sparing some focus to isolation exercises?

Finishers and isolation exercises seems not to be getting focus away from compounds however, knowing that you still have one or two different exercises after what you are practicing is different than knowing that you have a handful lifts to practice and focus.

Anyways, if an inch or half an inch arm size worth the effort in your opinion go for that. But if it is for hypertrophy reasons, I don’t see much value to go heavy with accessories. You can go for higher classical body building rep ranges as finishers IMO. And I don’t even think that you need programming for them. Just do a few high rep sets without going to failure and call it a day.

 

[Wa7ch]

It doesn't really work that way.

Most powerlifters, whose actual work is chasing PRs, train like bodybuilders during a significant period of their contest preparation. The bigger the engine (muscles cross-section), the bigger the potential to develop strength.

Is it fine to train using low reps exclusively? Yes.

Is it optimal? No.

Very good point, it does make sense that making the muscle tissue larger, allows you later on to fill it and increase strength,

But my goal is actually very specific

I wanna be very strong all while keeping my weight low,

I wanna weigh around 150 to 160 pounds and have a powerlifting total of 1000 pounds, which will obviously take a very long time and i am aware of that, basically like that anatoly guy on instagram

This is so i can be mobile and light to do other sports ( mainly calisthenics), and also to impress people who are bigger than me by lifting more than them.

 

[Wa7ch]

What kind of grip strength are we talking about?

Powerlifter kinda of grip strength

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Is it fine to train using low reps exclusively? Yes.

Is it optimal? No.

Great Point

The research data on the effectiveness of increasing Maximum Strength by performing Hypertrophy Training with a program that include is in Post 9.

With that said, let's look at...

Dr Michael Zouros' Research

Zourdos is a Powerlifter. His research examined how Maximum Strength is enhanced with...

Conjugate Training

This means employing different type of Strength Training into the same Periodization Training Cycle with...

1) Monday: Hypertrophy Training

2) Wednesday: Power Training

3) Friday: Maximum Strength Training

Combining these different Strength into a Periodization Cycle produced a...

The Synergistic Effect

"The sum is greater than its parts".

This meaning that the development of one type of Strength enhanced the other.

In plain English, it amount to adding 2 plus 2 and getting 5!

Block Training

Block Training revolves around Periodization Training Cycles that specifically focus on training one Strength at a time; which is effective.

Periodization Block Training Cycle

1) General Physical Preparation

2) Hypertrophy Training

3) Power Training

4) Maximum Strength Training

Dr Brad Schoenfeld's Hypertrophy Training Research

Schoenfeld determined incorporating different type into Hypertrophy Training optimized Hypertrophy.

1) Mechanical Tension

This is Maximum Strength Training.

2) Metabolic Stress

This is Bodybuilding/Hypertrophy Training.

3) Muscle Damage

InFrequently, pushing an exercise to failure or near to it. This occurs in the last week of a Periodization Training Cycle.

Also, Loaded Stretches produce Muscle Damage; Full Range Resistance Movement that Stretch Muscle in the movement; Dumbbell Bench Press that allows a greater stretch in the bottom part of the exercise, Full Squat, Pull Ups that stretch the muscle in the hang position, etc.

How the Training Program is written and followed determines which Strength is enhanced.

But my goal is actually very specific

I wanna be very strong all while keeping my weight low,

Diet

The key to maintaining, losing or gaining weight is Calorie Intake. Thus...

1) Maintaining Weight is about consuming the number of calories that keeps your weight the same.

2) Gaining Weight means consuming more calorie than you are using.

3) Losing Weight mean burning more calories than you consume.

I wanna weigh around 150 to 160 pounds and have a powerlifting total of 1000 pounds,

Doable

That is doable.

i can be mobile and light to do other sports

Being Light

Being light doesn't necessarily make you more mobile.

Olympic Lifter are the second rated highest group of most flexible and mobile athletes in sports; behind Gymnast.

It primarily has to do with an Olympic Lifter's Training Program.

Didzbalis celebrates bronze with back-flip

94 kg/207 lb Weight Class

This is so i can...also to impress people who are bigger than me by lifting more than them.

Not Likely

The reason there are Weight Classes in many sports is that with weight gain, there is an increase in Maximum Strength with knowledgeable, dedicated individuals.

Weight Class Records

Weight Class Record are usually different in each weight division. That because Heavier Lifters have more muscle mass. Thus, they more weight and the Weight Records are higher.

Every now and then there is an exception such as Eddie Coan (a genetic freak) who is considered the greatest Powerlifting of all time.

Summary

Is it fine to train using low reps exclusively? Yes.

Is it optimal? No.

 

[silveraw]

Powerlifter kinda of grip strength

You probably don’t need anything special other than the power lifts for that then. Maybe add a hold at the top of your last deadlift if you feel it’s lagging.

 

[Hung]

whose actual work is chasing PRs, train like bodybuilders during a significant period of their contest preparation

It's not. Current trend is DUP, highly specific. Singles, doubles and triples all year long. They do have sets of 8 with big 3 variations sometime and do some row and similar stuff but it isn't hypertrophy off session like the linear model

 

[silveraw]

It's not. Current trend is DUP, highly specific. Singles, doubles and triples all year long. They do have sets of 8 with big 3 variations sometime and do some row and similar stuff but it isn't hypertrophy off session like the linear model

I dunno, I'm still seeing accumulation phases with DUP programming.