Kettlebell Are high rep C&Js chipping away at the anterior cruciate ligament? (ACL)
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Brett Jones
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Why not address the ankle mobility issue?
Weightlifting shoes should be a choice not a "bandaid" IMO.
Weightlifting shoes should be a choice not a "bandaid" IMO.
Xene
Level 6 Valued Member
You have some guidance to address this problem many persons have? Calf stretches? Help is very much welcome!
Starlord
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A lot of stress is placed on the ACL during fire and maneuver drills.
You're coming out of cover and sprinting from point to point. So we are exposed to rapid acceleration, deceleration and change of direction already.
And that is before you consider the additional weight of your kit.
Squat, lunge and step up variations will help massively improve your bodies ability to generate force and absorb force in the lower limbs.
When the KB C&J is contributing to the stress on the ACL, sure. But not to the same extent as playing football.
You're coming out of cover and sprinting from point to point. So we are exposed to rapid acceleration, deceleration and change of direction already.
And that is before you consider the additional weight of your kit.
Squat, lunge and step up variations will help massively improve your bodies ability to generate force and absorb force in the lower limbs.
When the KB C&J is contributing to the stress on the ACL, sure. But not to the same extent as playing football.
Starlord
Level 5 Valued Member
Because for football (and most sports) ankle stiffness is very desirable.
JamesPTA
Level 7 Valued Member
Have you seen pictures of football players while they are cutting? Their feet a practically flat on the ground and their bodies are 30 + degrees from being fully upright. That requires a great deal of ankle mobility. Don't think ankle stiffness means ankle stability.
I am not Brett, but this video by Greg Everett is a good guide.
Starlord
Level 5 Valued Member
Just because some of them can doesn't mean that ankle stiffness isn't desired. That probably have more to do with what some players have to acheive in regards to positioning to to effectively change direction in an extreme scinario where only an extreme cut will do.
You consider everything outside of that extreme cut and all of a sudden high amounts of ankle stiffness becomes incredibly favourable for running efficiency.
Growing up playing football at school in England I recall hardly ever having to acheive an extreme position to cut. As well as most of my peers, with the exception of the incredibly tall.
Which if I had to guess would be the more extreme demand to maintain balance while performing change of direction.
JamesPTA
Level 7 Valued Member
@ Starlord. That's fair enough. and you can find research address ankle "stiffness"...I'm not even sure what that means....a stable ankle? You're going to find much more research that correlates ankle mobility is related to improved stability of the ankle, mechanics and foot/ankle/knee...etc.
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bluejeff
Level 7 Valued Member
This ^^^
A spring can be stiff and still compress and stretch. A tendon with greater elasticity acts like this. Somewhere along the course of time, stability became equated stiffness, and stiffness, to most people, means “immobility.”
Stability in the body has more to do with how the joints organize themselves under loads to effectively and safely transmit force, not the degree to which one prevents them from moving, if that makes sense.
In the context of rapid, high force movement such as playing soccer/football, I’d wager that even players who have less ankle mobility might wind up in greater ranges of motion should you freeze-frame them during the maneuvers in question.
Starlord
Level 5 Valued Member
In what context? In a weight lifting context sure. In a running context you will find more studies proving thr correlation between ankle stiffness (or various phraseology to that effect) having a direct correlation to things like sprint speeds than mobility.
Keeping with the metaphor, the sprint with the greatest recoil capability is the stiffest spring.
To take it to the extreme of stiffness is good so immobility must be better I would argue is folly.
And in this context we are discussing how the components comprising the ankle organise themselves to make themselves stiff is a bigger benefit in most sports than the capability of having a lot of dorsi flexion in the ankle is in most sports.
Is this the maneuvers regarding extreme cuts? If so then of course as they are dependent on extreme ankle mobility.
But you watch a player during a 90min match. How much of that time is he in that position?
As opposed to a position where stiffness of the ankle is of greater benefit? For starters when he's just jogging up and down the pitch to track the ball. That massively benefits from ankle stiffness transfer more power into the ground as opposed to being absorbed by the legs.
I would argue this is where a player spends most of his time playing football, as opposed to a deep cut which is the minority of his time.
I don't know about studies, but in my experience very good runners have tight calves/achilles tendons, and at least several coaches I've talked with think that that degree of tightness is needed to maximally transfer force during running and discourage overly stretching that area - bad for full squats, but maybe good for improved running speeds. I don't really have much to contribute to the discussion, but thought I'd share.
Starlord
Level 5 Valued Member
100% and in addition tightening of the lateral structures to prevent rolling of the ankle too.
Brett Jones
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Restricted ankle dorsiflexion is a very very well established risk factor for injury—it is not up for debate.
And that is just the tip of iceberg from a research perspective...
You can have both full dorsiflexion and responsive tissue.
And that is just the tip of iceberg from a research perspective...
You can have both full dorsiflexion and responsive tissue.
bluejeff
Level 7 Valued Member
Did you mean "the spring with the greatest recoil"? Just for clarification.
I think perhaps something got lost in translation here. What I was trying to communicate was that mobility (the ability to move through a range of motion) and tendon stiffness are sort of independent. We know that the tendon transfers force between muscle and bone. We want it to be stiff. We also know that eccentric loading (if not overdone) makes it better at all that. Running is repeated eccentric loading. So are repeated catches in the LCCJ. A greater dorsiflexion does not mean the tendon is less stiff. When we stretch to increase our range of motion, we are not stretching tendons. Anyone who knows how to safely stretch should know that you want to feel your stretches in the muscles and not the joints.
So what I was trying to say was that the word "stiffness" comes across as a vague term. Once again, when most people hear "stiff" they think "reduced ability to move." Which sound to me like what you are saying, but I may be misunderstanding.
Brett Jones
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bluejeff
agreed—the idea that (as you stated) "...when most people hear "stiff" they think "reduced ability to move..." is key.
agreed—the idea that (as you stated) "...when most people hear "stiff" they think "reduced ability to move..." is key.
Travis Sisco
Level 5 Valued Member
One thing I would like to ask is do you/did you do any low level plyo’s and deceleration training preseason to prep for the impact. Also did you do any agility work on grass to prepare the body to handle the terrain? Did you do too much high intensity sprinting or plyometric work that might have fatigued the tissue therefore tearing it during a high intensity movement. I would want to look at the rest of your training before assessing whether it was the C&J or not. Not that your question doesn’t raise a good point. I tore my Achilles playing tennis not because I wasn’t strong enough in the ankle/foot but I played on a day that was supposed to be a total rest day due to the high intensity nature of the following two days training session. I assume it tore due to fatigue not lack of prep.
Starlord
Level 5 Valued Member
A few gripes I have with this.
Just having Pope et al 1998 will open someone up to a harem of research articles. Many of which done by Pope and many of which released in 1998.
Is it?
OK but why haven't you linked your source information? How can any attempt to scrutinise the quality of the source material if they don't have access to it?
Just having Pope et al 1998 will open someone up to a harem of research articles. Many of which done by Pope and many of which released in 1998.
It is clear that you don't know what is meant in by "ankle stiffness" in SnC circles. I assumed (which is where I clearly made a mistake) that if we hear about these SnC concepts in the military, which is incredibly slow to update and "modernise" then it would be common knowledge.
Brett Jones
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Starlord
This should get you started:
The Teyhen article:
What Risk Factors Are Associated With Musculoskeletal Injury in US Army Rangers? A Prospective Prognostic Study - PubMed
Please provide me with your definition of ankle stiffness.
This should get you started:
The Teyhen article:
What Risk Factors Are Associated With Musculoskeletal Injury in US Army Rangers? A Prospective Prognostic Study - PubMed
Please provide me with your definition of ankle stiffness.
bluejeff
Level 7 Valued Member
@Starlord It didn't take me long to find a sizeable list of studies finding correlations between decrease ankle dorsiflexion and injuries or injury risks. I am not sure what SnC circles you are referring to but since you are asking for references I kindly ask you to provide some.
A lot of this kind of stuff in the fitness/strength training/athletics world gets more and more messy the more you actually research. There is an overwhelming amount of "it depends....," "this showed 'x' BUT in the case of 'y' it didn't..." and more. There are confounding factors and limitations on studies. There's just a lot that makes it hard to say "factor x" ALWAYS means "outcome y." All that is to say that looking for trends is where I think conclusions should be drawn. Those conclusions should not be set in stone though. They should be open to reinterpretations upon new evidence.
I do not have the time to read every study start to finish, nor the money to pay for access for some. My experience, self-education into biomechanics, and observations, alongside what I was able to find in 10 minutes of search time are enough for me.
Since the OP was asking about ACL injuries, I posted some finding that specifically reference ACL issues.
"AT" is achilles tendinopathy.
jfootankleres.biomedcentral.com
link.springer.com
link.springer.com
This one is from the American Journal of Sports Medicine, "PT" is patellar tendinopathy:
www.sciencedirect.com
A lot of this kind of stuff in the fitness/strength training/athletics world gets more and more messy the more you actually research. There is an overwhelming amount of "it depends....," "this showed 'x' BUT in the case of 'y' it didn't..." and more. There are confounding factors and limitations on studies. There's just a lot that makes it hard to say "factor x" ALWAYS means "outcome y." All that is to say that looking for trends is where I think conclusions should be drawn. Those conclusions should not be set in stone though. They should be open to reinterpretations upon new evidence.
I do not have the time to read every study start to finish, nor the money to pay for access for some. My experience, self-education into biomechanics, and observations, alongside what I was able to find in 10 minutes of search time are enough for me.
Since the OP was asking about ACL injuries, I posted some finding that specifically reference ACL issues.
"AT" is achilles tendinopathy.
Limited ankle dorsiflexion increases the risk for mid-portion Achilles tendinopathy in infantry recruits: a prospective cohort study - Journal of Foot and Ankle Research
Background Achilles tendinopathy (AT) is a prevalent condition among runners and military personnel. Although ankle dorsiflexion (DF) range of motion (ROM) as measured with the knee bent has not been previously associated with AT, the literature concerning its role is limited. In addition, the...
jfootankleres.biomedcentral.com
Anterior cruciate ligament injury and ankle dorsiflexion - Knee Surgery, Sports Traumatology, Arthroscopy
Purpose The aim was to study whether the degree of ankle dorsiflexion differs between subjects with an anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) injury and uninjured controls. Another aim was to study ankle dorsiflexion between the injured and the uninjured leg and in addition between women and men with...
link.springer.com
Predictor factors for lower extremity malalignment and non-contact anterior cruciate ligament injuries in male athletes - Knee Surgery, Sports Traumatology, Arthroscopy
Purpose The aim of this study was to determine the predictor factors concerning the lower extremity alignment in non-contact anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) injuries among male athletes. Methods In a retrospective study, the unilateral navicular drop, the ankle dorsiflexion range of motion...
link.springer.com
This one is from the American Journal of Sports Medicine, "PT" is patellar tendinopathy:
Lower limb strength and flexibility in athletes with and without patellar tendinopathy
To compare the hip, knee and ankle torques, as well as knee and ankle flexibility between athletes with patellar tendinopathy and asymptomatic control…
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