all posts post new thread

Kettlebell Are high rep C&Js chipping away at the anterior cruciate ligament? (ACL)

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
@Starlord It didn't take me long to find a sizeable list of studies finding correlations between decrease ankle dorsiflexion and injuries or injury risks. I am not sure what SnC circles you are referring to but since you are asking for references I kindly ask you to provide some.

A lot of this kind of stuff in the fitness/strength training/athletics world gets more and more messy the more you actually research. There is an overwhelming amount of "it depends....," "this showed 'x' BUT in the case of 'y' it didn't..." and more. There are confounding factors and limitations on studies. There's just a lot that makes it hard to say "factor x" ALWAYS means "outcome y." All that is to say that looking for trends is where I think conclusions should be drawn. Those conclusions should not be set in stone though. They should be open to reinterpretations upon new evidence.

I do not have the time to read every study start to finish, nor the money to pay for access for some. My experience, self-education into biomechanics, and observations, alongside what I was able to find in 10 minutes of search time are enough for me.

Since the OP was asking about ACL injuries, I posted some finding that specifically reference ACL issues.


"AT" is achilles tendinopathy.






This one is from the American Journal of Sports Medicine, "PT" is patellar tendinopathy:


The AT article was spot on with my personal experience with AT
 
Starlord
This should get you started:
View attachment 16452
The Teyhen article:
What Risk Factors Are Associated With Musculoskeletal Injury in US Army Rangers? A Prospective Prognostic Study - PubMed


Please provide me with your definition of ankle stiffness.
I won't provide you with my definition as it is a well established term in SnC circles for sports that require a lot of running.

Here are a couple of videos that do a good job talking about ankle stiffness and I'll follow up with a couple of articles. So you can decide pick and choose.





"Stiffness vs Tightness​

When a coach or exercise scientist discusses stiffness we are usually referring to the pliability of a tissue but it’s not always a negative thing. Every muscle in the body has tendons at either end to transmit the force a muscle generates into movement of the bones. The shape and size of the tendon will depend on how much force it is asked to transmit, and how quickly" Alex Adams


"Many strength and conditioning programs put all the emphasis on ankle mobility, using various stretches to improve range of motion. Unfortunately, your wolf pack will go hungry if all your athletes have ankles that twist and crumble when they strike the ground. What if working on ankle stiffness could make athletes sprint faster and change direction more effectively?" Tony Bonvechio


"Lower limb stiffness is an interesting balance—while I want my athlete’s ankles to be stiff enough to get good rebound/push off from the floor to produce power, I don’t want their ankles to be like bricks!" Andrew Aldred

And now a my person experience. I used to be a heavy heel striker during the early stages serving in the military. During this time I would squat with low profile trainers ATG.

After a bad jump I sustained an injury and after getting x rays performed they diagnosed my with slipped discs, bilateral knee injuries and twin stress fractures. During my time in physio they disclosed that the number 1 cause of shin injuries is heel strike running.

As part of my rehab I switched to a mid to forefoot strike and implemented ankle stiffness work. A year after my injury I ran every distance across the board faster. 2km sub 6min, 1.5miler sub 7min, 2km RFT sub 11mins etc.

This is the case for a lot of lads as well. The rugby teams implement ankle stiffness work, the football teams implement ankle stiffness work, the triathlon teams implement ankle stiffness work etc.

Now although the goal isn't to lose dorsiflexion some loss does happen. I can't squat ATG with low profile shoes anymore. So many years ago I made the switch to squat shoes. But I haven't sustained a lower limb injury or lasting discomfort in a longtime, with the exception of some impact injuries e.g. clipping my knee on the door when performing a jump.

@Starlord I am not sure what SnC circles you are referring to but since you are asking for references I kindly ask you to provide some.
I've made reference to it above in my reply to Brett Jones.
A lot of this kind of stuff in the fitness/strength training/athletics world gets more and more messy the more you actually research. There is an overwhelming amount of "it depends....," "this showed 'x' BUT in the case of 'y' it didn't..." and more. There are confounding factors and limitations on studies. There's just a lot that makes it hard to say "factor x" ALWAYS means "outcome y." All that is to say that looking for trends is where I think conclusions should be drawn. Those conclusions should not be set in stone though. They should be open to reinterpretations upon new evidence.
I 100% agree and that seems to be the case with all the studies referenced. They aren't actually tackling the issue of ankle stiffness.

An effective forefoot strike when running is dependent on high amounts of ankle stiffness. If your ankle absorbs too much fore then your GRF (ground reaction force) diminishes and yoy are losing performance.

Additionally a large amount of SnC, restorative usage, diet and supplementation usage used by various sporting and bodybuilding communities are far beyond the science.

I'm going to butcher a quote by I think Dr Schoenfeld "we try to use the science to find out how athletes do what they do." So even one of the top sports scientists in the west concedes that the science is behind the anecdote.

I like to use bodybuilding as the clear example of this as the disparity between what the best bodybuilders do and what the science says is leagues apart. Dr Schoenfeld, Dr Helms, Dr Israetel etc have never produced a bodybuilder close to the caliber that Milos Sarcev or Hanny Rambod have.

So in a situation where someone is discussing bodybuilding methods and protocols who would I listen to? The guy citing studies or Milos Sarcev?

The real world evidence speaks for itself load and clear.
I do not have the time to read every study start to finish, nor the money to pay for access for some. My experience, self-education into biomechanics, and observations, alongside what I was able to find in 10 minutes of search time are enough for me.
That's understandable. I don't think anyone here (outside of those who's job it is to know SnC for educational and work related purpose) to have membership to get around the numerous pay walls out there.
 
If I could chime in here with a SF analogy of tension and relaxation to that of stiffness and mobility.
GRF is one of the main components of sprint speed and it is the one that slows with age. It's not so much of how stiff or how mobile the ankle is, it is the ability to be maximally tense to transmit power in the ground and to switch off. The reference earlier to JB Morin, it is this attribute that differentiates sub 10 sprinters....the tension/relaxation cycle below the knee, moreover the precise timing of it.
I sprint, well not much in these covid times and really a deep squat with full range dorsi flexion helps not only with ankles but also quad length because the other thing is hip extension and that can be goosed with tight quads....another thread in that....but yeah, you need good ankle tension and good ankle mobility to sprint well.
One very good way to achieve this is to run barefoot. If not barefoot, minimal shoes with mid foot centre of mass.
Sprinting is a good way to practice this as heel striking and sprinting is weird and difficult. Recognising that the forces will cause injury to newly exposed so there's that...but as a generality.
Thing is, so many foot and ankle strengthening exercises can be easily addressed with a one stop shop....proper running mechanics.
And that's another thing..
 
Starlord

Ken Clark (first video) states it right away that adequate ankle mobility is a prerequisite.

I stated earlier that you can have adequate ankle mobility and responsive (stiff) tissues which would line up exactly with Clark’s comments—so what exactly are you arguing for or disagreeing with?

Reduced ankle dorsiflexion is a recognized injury risk factor so having adequate ankle mobility is a first step.
 
You didn't use the @ function so I would be notified my your reply.
Ken Clark (first video) states it right away that adequate ankle mobility is a prerequisite.

I stated earlier that you can have adequate ankle mobility and responsive (stiff) tissues which would line up exactly with Clark’s comments—so what exactly are you arguing for or disagreeing with?
But adequate mobility isn't quantified by Ken Clark. As someone who is actually aware of this term in SnC circles I have never heard is quantified as deep dorsiflexion.

So I personally will not accept that as evidence supporting your point.
Reduced ankle dorsiflexion is a recognized injury risk factor so having adequate ankle mobility is a first step.
So is deep dorsiflexion. Hence my reference to how prominent lower limb injuries are with heel strike runners.

Which is dependent on deep dorsiflexion.
 
How does heel striking running require deep dorsiflexion?
If anything it’s the opposite.

Adequate ankle rom is quantified—for example within FMS it is passing the ankle clearing and having 40-degrees or greater active ankle dorsiflexion especially since 34 degrees and under is 2.5 times greater risk of injury and 5 times greater risk of an ankle sprain.

@Starlord
 
How does heel striking running require deep dorsiflexion?
If anything it’s the opposite.
Valid. I meant extension. Will go back and edit it accordingly to prevent any further confusion.
Adequate ankle rom is quantified—for example within FMS it is passing the ankle clearing and having 40-degrees or greater active ankle dorsiflexion especially since 34 degrees and under is 2.5 times greater risk of injury and 5 times greater risk of an ankle sprain.

@Starlord
No the sources never quantified adequate ankle mobility. In fact only 1 of them made reference to it.

The rest referenced the benefits of ankle stiffness in sports not only for GFR but injury prevention. Especially in the way of lateral forces when running.

In regards to studies proving the increase risk of injury caused by heel striking which is dependent on deep ankle extension...




Huge disclaimer on this one...majority of the lower limb injuries are due to contacts. After that it is lateral steps due to lateral forces, the same sort of thing that ankle stiffness work is beneficial for preventing (and the emphasis is on preventing).


Abother disclaimer...this is performed on cadavers. Taking the bones and running the measurements through various simulations.

Although this removes many variables it also cannot account for many human factors too. So if you choose to disregard then that makes sense.


Yet another disclaimer...although there is a lot of heel strike running there is the additional level of stress from British drill. A heel strike is performed when you brace up, when you stop, when you turn and when you are marking time to name few.

Although this will be less than strikes from running it is still additional stress.


As mentioned by @bluejeff, not all studies are made equal and there are a variety of issues in regards to injury related studies. You can't effectively study an injury if you can't be there when an injury occurs to observe it.

But we have evidence both anecdotal and stats collated that show correlation between heel striking (which requires good dorsiflexion) and lower limb injuries. In addition to forefoot striking which requires only dorsiflexion being less injurious on the lower limbs and having GRF.

Which is of more benefit to most athletes and *sigh* tactical athletes.
 
What is Ankle Dorsiflexion and How Can it Harm Runners? - RUN FOREFOOT
Assuming you are referring to this.

Improper running mechanics like that do not negate my points.
You forgot to tag me again.

And the more dorsi extension you can acheive when running the more pressure you put on a smaller space on the heel when you have a heel strike.

Simple GCSE physics will explain why having the same overall force concentrated onto a smaller area would exacerbate wear and tear on structures. In the case of the human body lead to injury.
 
@Starlord

I have no argument that heel striking running is an issue and to be avoided.

It also has nothing to do with wanting proper dorsiflexion rom.

And you can have proper rom and “stiffness.”
 
I think this thread has gone off topic on more than one occasion. @Starlord , whatever his background may be, has already made up his mind against one of the pioneering individuals of the FMS System along with being the head SFG of this forum. This is a system (FMS/SFMA) that has been tested and proven time after time, study after study, to be effective at determining risk of injury or re-injury. One of those factors just happens to be ankle mobility. There should be no debate in this case if one would do the actual research.
 
I think this thread has gone off topic on more than one occasion. @Starlord , whatever his background may be, has already made up his mind against one of the pioneering individuals of the FMS System along with being the head SFG of this forum. This is a system (FMS/SFMA) that has been tested and proven time after time, study after study, to be effective at determining risk of injury or re-injury. One of those factors just happens to be ankle mobility. There should be no debate in this case if one would do the actual research.
And ankle stiffness is a concept that is well known among all sports that involve running.

The fact that @Brett Jones is the SFG director of education and wasn't aware of this term that is well established was concerning to myself.

That's just me personally. I do not accept the argument by authority as a stand alone reason to beleive anyone. No one is above scrutiny and I think to beleive anyone is is incredibly bad thinking in my opinion.
@Starlord

I have no argument that heel striking running is an issue and to be avoided.

It also has nothing to do with wanting proper dorsiflexion rom.

And you can have proper rom and “stiffness.”
But the stiffness does come at a cost. It isn't uncommon for example for professional rugby players to not be able to squat flat footed.

As the stiffness methods will still limit ROM overtime. It is a trade off.

But as James has mentioned...we have gone off topic for quite sometime. I will draw a line here.
 
I think this could use a bit more nuance. When Pavel used to write about flexibility, he often referenced old-time strongmen who instinctively avoided stretching. Supposedly a tighter lifter (provided not too tight to perform a given exercise with proper form) will get injured more often, but will be able to move more weight due to the stretch reflex firing sooner. Much of this discussion seems to have its arguments mismatched - cannot it be true at the same time that insufficient ankle ROM is a risk factor for injuries and that it can produce an advantage in sports?

After all, the word "athlete" originally meant not "a strong and healthy person", or "a physically capable person", or "a guy who looks like Jeff Cavaliere" or even "a man who can walk unassisted in his forties" but a "a participant in a contest". And in fact to compete at highest levels in many sports is to accept huge risks and trade long-term health for short-term performance.
 
Last edited:
@Starlord

I am very aware of the term and have been for many years.

I believe you are confusing the tissue response (stiffness) desired with the joint range of motion (active dorsiflexion).

Just because some rugby players squat with their heel elevated (which could be related to injuries and other issues) does not justify "wanting" reduced ankle rom because you think the "stiffer" joint is a better option. Again the stiffness is in the tissues (hence trained by plyometrics and loading) and can be and should be acquired with proper joint rom.
 
especially since 34 degrees and under is 2.5 times greater risk of injury and 5 times greater risk of an ankle sprain.
Is there an explanation for how the risk of one specific injury (ankle sprain) could be higher than the risk of injury in general?
 
Is there an explanation for how the risk of one specific injury (ankle sprain) could be higher than the risk of injury in general?
Take a look at the Teyhen article I linked to earlier—essentially there is a pretest collecting a variety of measures and then after a period of time injury is tracked and connections between specific measures and certain injuries is made.
Like the 34-degrees and under ankle dorsiflexion creating greater injury risk and risk of ankle sprains.
 
especially since 34 degrees and under is 2.5 times greater risk of injury and 5 times greater risk of an ankle sprain.
Take a look at the Teyhen article I linked to earlier—essentially there is a pretest collecting a variety of measures and then after a period of time injury is tracked and connections between specific measures and certain injuries is made.
Like the 34-degrees and under ankle dorsiflexion creating greater injury risk and risk of ankle sprains.

I am not following. The Teyhen article appears to consider ankle dorsiflexion asymmetry as a risk factor, but I don't see any mention of a 34-degrees and under measurement. I also don't see any mention of a 2.5x greater risk of injury or 5x greater risk of ankle sprain.

My question above was how the risk of one specific injury (5x greater risk of ankle sprain) can be greater than the risk of all injury in general (2.5x greater risk of injury). Doesn't the overall risk of injury have to be higher than the risk of any one specific injury, or is there an explanation of how the opposite could be true?
 
Last edited:
@Steve W.

Perhaps @Brett Jones can verify for me, but the way I am reading it is:

-There is a 2.5x greater risk of injury in general (meaning any injury, probably lower-extremity)
-and a 5x greater risk of ankle sprains specifically (in the category of ankle sprains)

In other words, they are independent categories. At least that's my interpretation.
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom