Kettlebell Complexes: Who, When, How?

[North Coast Miller]

The Nuckols' article about powerlifters refers to the idea that there are primarily two factors to train in a bigger total; skill and muscle mass. In a sport with weight classes body composition plays a huge role.

The Nuckol's article recommends using a variety of rep and loading ranges to get the best performance from a muscle.

He has another article/study about "sarcoplasmic hypertrophy" where he demonstrates adding muscle as a major driver of increasing limit strength, even if that added muscle is of low relative strength output.
Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy: The Bros Were Probably Right

But a lot of this discussion is drifting from complexes to sport specific prep. The peak of general fitness is not going to be training like a competitive Oly or powerlifter, though elements common to those training regimens would be fine to cycle through. For someone involved in combat sports or some other sport where strength is one factor and low rep limit strength not really a concern, complexes become increasingly valid.

Another thing to consider in terms of complexes done to a high level of fatigue is they are a proven timesaver. You will improve cardio, you will improve strength. You will do so in a short amount of time and with loads that are easy on the joints. Again, I don't think they are the be all end all, but they are a great tool to use in conjunction with other more limit oriented strength work if muscular endurance is part of the demand.

 

[Antti]

The Definitive On Powerlifting

There no "Even if..." Powerlifting is not nor will it every be categorized as a Power Movement.

Power is displayed in milliseconds. The Powerlifts take seconds to complete.

Power Training For the Powerlifts

The Westside Powerlifting Program has demonstrated that Power Training via Conjugate Training, plays a role with increasing Limits Strength.

There "Speed Training" days have demonstrated that. However, "Speed Training" is a misnomer.

Their "Speed Training" is actually Power Training; that based on the percentage of 1 Repetition Max used and the fact the there's not really speed involved in the movement.



Limit Strength

Powerlifting is the one sport that is a true test of Limit Strength.

Limit Strength using a 1 Repetition Max is going to entail a slow grinding movement. It the nature of the beast.

Olympic Lifter employ heavy "Grinding" Squats and Presses, they are quite capable of grinding out a 1 Repetition Max.



Skill Training and Development

I provide multiple post on how Skill and Technique in conjunction with a Limit Strength Training program; without compromising the skill and Technique of the sports movement being learned.

Kenny Croxdale

I think there may be some kind of language barrier at play here.

When I said "Even if" it was exactly to say that speed and explosiveness are not exclusive to the power atheletes, that they are useful for the powerlifters as well, as was used in this example.

I am aware of the Westside training template, though I have never trained in the manner, and I live rather far away from Westside.

When I mentioned grinding, I meant that one can't grind a clean or a snatch, for example. Powerlifters will grind their 1RMs.

When I mentioned skill it was skill specific to grinding, not skill in the powerlifts themselves. One may be relatively good in a lift, say deadlift for example, and give the lift up with the bar around the knees, when it slows down, if one does not know, does not have the skill, how to grind, to keep going.

 

[Provx]

Whoops I didn’t mean to start an argument over the word fatigue, also i wasn’t saying i prefer complex’s to a+a.

For me it seems i have better fat loss/ body recomp on complexes such as 701a and mkm.

I have more strength gains doing heavy weight with less reps and more rest time with a program similar to dry fighting weight.

The programs that are just massive total volume like 10,000 swing challenges seem to wear me down to the point of injury and declining performance.

 

[Deleted member 5559]

Speaking of power...Different engines have different specifications for a reason. A long stroke piston provides a different benefit than a large bore piston. It is important to apply the physics in the manner needed.

1. accelerate a mass
2. over a distance
3. at a rate

A 5.9 liter inline 6 diesel provides a lot of power but at a low RPM. A 1.6 liter V-6 provides a lot of power but at a much higher RPM. One is good for towing, the other is not. One is good for racing, the other is not.

Complexes can be used to modify any of the variables in the equation to some extent, correct?

 

[IonRod]

Again, I'm not saying fatigue doesn't happen. Of course it does. I'm saying fatigue as an indicator of training to failure / exhaustion is not the key metric.

Fair enough, my mistake, I thought you are arguing to not induce fatigue in muscles during training. Just to be clear, I agree that skill movements should not be trained in fatigued state or until fatigue is induced. However, in order to develop strength and/or hypertrophy, muscle fatigue is absolutely necessary and since weightlifting requires skill in strength, you have to use both training modalities. I am sure you have strength development blocks where you do use rep and weight schemes that are fatiguing, just not to failure as you prioritize strength over hypertrophy. Am I right?

 

[Shahaf Levin]

in order to develop strength and/or hypertrophy, muscle fatigue is absolutely necessary

I quoted @IonRod's post, but I've seen that word or it's derivatives more than once recently.

"Absolutely" is a very strong word that should have massive support under it. It is also one of the most unscientific words there are. I think it is often used when individuals encounter paradigms they dislike.

I think this is the biggest paradigm shift embedded in Stongfirst that tends to fly in the face of what's currently popular.

Back to the case in hand, Easy strength, PttP, Justa's singles, DDD, A+A and its variants, all develop strength while lifting fresh/recovered without fatigue as a driver of adaptation.

And I'll continue with @watchnerd's quote

It can't be said enough how well this works (at least for me), and how different it is from the "smoke yourself" / exercise-as-calories-burnt school of thought that seems to be burned into the mind of most people.

 

[IonRod]

I quoted @IonRod's post, but I've seen that word or it's derivatives more than once recently.

"Absolutely" is a very strong word that should have massive support under it. It is also one of the most unscientific words there are. I think it is often used when individuals encounter paradigms they dislike.

And I will stand by it in this case. It is a strong word but my comment is not a submission to a scientific journal. In the context of forum discussion I think it is fine.

I will define fatigue: it is a result of volume, intensity, frequency and overall stress on an individual for a given amount of training. It can be discussed in the context of a single workout or a series of workouts (over a week or even a month). Methods such as PttP or DDD use deadlifts on a daily basis, accumulating fatigue over many sessions within several weeks. These methods increase frequency while keeping volume and intensity relatively low. So fatigue is accumulated and then the adaptations are realized during short testing sessions within both programs.

I will say further, that fatigue is not a useful metric only because it is impossible to accurately quantify. If, however, we can imagine a sci-fi scenario where it is possible to somehow reliably measure fatigue, it would be a great metric.

 

[Shahaf Levin]

And I will stand by it in this case. It is a strong word but my comment is not a submission to a scientific journal. In the context of forum discussion I think it is fine.

I will define fatigue: it is a result of volume, intensity, frequency and overall stress on an individual for a given amount of training. It can be discussed in the context of a single workout or a series of workouts (over a week or even a month). Methods such as PttP or DDD use deadlifts on a daily basis, accumulating fatigue over many sessions within several weeks. These methods increase frequency while keeping volume and intensity relatively low. So fatigue is accumulated and then the adaptations are realized during short testing sessions within both programs.

I will say further, that fatigue is not a useful metric only because it is impossible to accurately quantify. If, however, we can imagine a sci-fi scenario where it is possible to somehow reliably measure fatigue, it would be a great metric.

If this is the way you define fatigue than I would say I agree with your statement that fatigue is required for any type of adaptation to occur.

I want to add something about discussion and communication in general. When a word has a certain common definition (fatigue for eg.) using it with a different meaning, without stating that, will cause communication errors. Such error happened the above case. If we want to converse in order to share ideas we should, IMO, strive to minimize such errors. However, if we just want to say things than this paragraph is not relevant.

 

[IonRod]

If this is the way you define fatigue than I would say I agree with your statement that fatigue is required for any type of adaptation to occur.

I want to add something about discussion and communication in general. When a word has a certain common definition (fatigue for eg.) using it with a different meaning, without stating that, will cause communication errors. Such error happened the above case. If we want to converse in order to share ideas we should, IMO, strive to minimize such errors. However, if we just want to say things than this paragraph is not relevant.

Which of the common definitions would make my statement controversial? "weariness or exhaustion from labor, exertion, or stress" is just less specific to training, but still has the same connotation. I thought that when we use it in the context of training, we are talking about stress. And stress is generated by combination of volume, intesity, frequency and overall stress (basically, life happening). I thought this was a common definition of fatigue in training. How do you define it?

 

[Hung]

Complexes can be used to modify any of the variables in the equation to some extent, correct?

i agree with this. I don't think that complex and A+A have to be conflict with each other. For example, a complex of 1 swing-1 clean- 1 snatch is recommend for learning the snatch. Multi that for many repets, have proper rest - it looks like AGT to me

 

[watchnerd]

i agree with this. I don't think that complex and A+A have to be conflict with each other. For example, a complex of 1 swing-1 clean- 1 snatch is recommend for learning the snatch. Multi that for many repets, have proper rest - it looks like AGT to me

This is certinaly true.

Although the common fitness journalist article / clickbait seems to gravitate towards metcon scenarios. Googling on "barbell complex" gives the following top search results on the first page:

The 5 Best Barbell Complex Workout to Burn Fat and Build Muscle

Lift To Burn: 4 Barbell Complexes To Scorch Fat And Increase Strength

Screw Cardio! Four Complexes for a Shredded Physique

3 Fat-Burning Barbell Complex Routines

So regardless of how complexes (barbell / kettlebell / bodyweight / etc) could be used, they seemed to be heavily marketed as "shredding" routines.

 

[North Coast Miller]

So regardless of how complexes (barbell / kettlebell / bodyweight / etc) could be used, they seemed to be heavily marketed as "shredding" routines.

Absolutely. And even if you do break them down a bit into a series of lower rep/higher load movements, the act of stringing them together is going to heavily juice glycolysis, no matter how much rest you use between intervals. Some of the research indicates using long rest periods shorts you of much of the aerobic benees anyway, probably at trade off of better strength increase - though I'd be surprised if it was by a significant margin unless this is your primary/exclusive form of exercise.

I definitely agree with your position that they are not very good for improving raw strength. I also don't think they are a good choice for putting on mass. I do feel they help with endurance, with actually expressing strength in a general sense, and for improving/maintaining body comp. If you are not doing a dedicated strength or size program, complexes will improve both markers

Currently I alternate "complexes" of
sandbag shoulder cleans x6 reps followed immediately by sandbag decksquat x6
or
sandbag power cleans x8 and sandbag TGUx5
both give me about 90 seconds of work to 60 seconds rest using between 70 and 80% of my RM

By my third interval my HR is running about 90% of theoretical max. I could increase my rest periods, but since I probably couldn't increase my loads very much no matter how much extra rest I used, I'd likely see little benefit in doing so.

 

[Nate]

Complexes

Actually, Complexes can be part of one's training program; no need to perform them for 4 - 12 weeks and then dump them.

Complexes are cardio training. Research has demonstrated that come cardio training increases recovery.

Periodization Training

The same training principle applies with Complexes as with all other method, Periodization Training.

Over a few weeks, resistance is progressively increase. That means the Training Cycle start off easy, with the load/intensity increasing each week during the training cycle.

The final week of the cycle is pushed to the limit. After that week, the training load of the Complexes are dropped down to something easy and the process start all over.

Varying Exercises

As with other training, varying/changing the exercises in the following Complexes will elicit a greater training effect.

Training Age

One of the determinate factors how long a Training Cycle is performed is based on your Training Age; how long you have been training.

Research shows it take longer for novice lifters to adapt; they can make progress on the same program for a longer period of time before needing to change their program, appoximately 6 - 12 weeks.

Advance lifter adapt much faster. They need to change their program about every 3- 6 weeks.




Metabolic/Endurance Training

Complexes fall into the Metabolic/Endurance/Aerobic Training category.

Some strength and hypertrophy are elicited. However, Complexes rate much lower in accomplishing either.



A Square Is A Rectangle But a Rectangle Isn't A Square

Hypertrophy Training falls into the area of Endurance Training.

However, Complexes don't really fall into the area of Hypertrophy Training.

Metabolic Stress

There are three mechanisms necessary for hyperetrophy. The primary one of the three is Metabolic Stress.

Metabolic Stress is...

The Pump

The Pump occurs when an exercise pumps blood (arterial blood flow from the heart) to the specific muscles targeted in an exercise. Moderate to high repetition are performed with moderate to light loads.

The muscle contraction restricts blood flow (ventricle blood flow back to the heart). The blood becomes trapped in the worked muscles.

Multiple sets with minimal rest periods between set are preformed with the exercise.

Short rest trap blood in the worked muscles, not allowing it to flow back to the heart, "Ballooning" the muscles up, The Pump.

The Pump produces produces an anabolic effect.

Time Under Tension

Time Under Tension does play a role via blood flow restriction in the worked muscles. However, the focus need to be on hammering the muscle involve via the exercise.

Since Complexes are composed of a multiple different exercises that work the whole body;

That means very little Metabolic Stress is placed on the specific muscles targeted for hypertrophy.

So, while Complexes (generally all exercises) promote hypertrophy, they are less effective.



Beginner Complexes

Complexes is Circuit Training. There are beginner Circuit Training Complexes Classes at colleges and gyms that are taught

The key for beginners for Complexes or any exercise program is to start off easy, then progressively increase the intensity.

High Intensity Interval Training For Cardiac Rehab

This is one method that is being used for cardiac rehab based on research.

A hospital cardiac rehab department is one of my clients. It places cardiac patients on a High Intensity Interval Training Program, not too long after surgery.

However as the director of the department told me, the initial High Intensity Interval Training Program for these cardiac patients amount to walking to the end of the hallway, resting, then repeating a couple of time.

For a cardiac patient right out of surgery. Walking up and down the hallway and back a couple of times is quite demanding. Rehab starts quickly with this group and others, as well.

Knee Replacement patients start walking a few hours after surgery or the day after. Waling for them amount to walking a few feet, resting and repeating a couple of time. For them this amount to High Intensity Interval Training.

The Take Home Message

No matter your physical limitations (Beginner. Cardiac Rehab Patients, Knee Replacement patients) Complexes or High Intensity Interval Training Programs can be preformed, providing the program starts off easy.

Kenny Croxdale

I like your explanation of processes so maybe you can help.

Charles Staley advocates the reduction of junk volume, saying "the assumption that it's really only the final 3 or so painful reps that deliver the benefits of the entire set" -- This makes sense to me with the mechanism of metabolic stress and coincides with traditional bodybuilding techniques.

But ladders, Rite of Passage, Total Tension Complex, etc are all hypertrophy programs that appear to be based on large volume of sets of sub-max reps. So why isn't that "junk volume"? I'm assuming it doesn't stimulate hypertrophy through metabolic stress as much as through mechanical tension & muscle damage...? Is there a difference with triggering myofibrillar vs. sarcoplasmic hypertrophy?

Thanks for any input from any & all!

 

[North Coast Miller]

I like your explanation of processes so maybe you can help.

Charles Staley advocates the reduction of junk volume, saying "the assumption that it's really only the final 3 or so painful reps that deliver the benefits of the entire set" -- This makes sense to me with the mechanism of metabolic stress and coincides with traditional bodybuilding techniques.

But ladders, Rite of Passage, Total Tension Complex, etc are all hypertrophy programs that appear to be based on large volume of sets of sub-max reps. So why isn't that "junk volume"? I'm assuming it doesn't stimulate hypertrophy through metabolic stress as much as through mechanical tension & muscle damage...? Is there a difference with triggering myofibrillar vs. sarcoplasmic hypertrophy?

Thanks for any input from any & all!

Kenny's explanation is about the best you'll find on this thread or anywhere else.

If you keep at the volume but use a relatively high %RM, you'll get the same adaptive response but spread out over more time/volume. Going back to the inverse relationship between intensity and volume - the true HIT folks only use one working set at max + intensity, it works very well for some folks but not everybody, and often not without a training partner.

The advantage of the higher volume protocols is they are better tolerated by just about anybody.

There is no real distinction between myofibrillar or sarcoplasmic hypertrophy - it doesn't exist. There is a distinction between working at heavier load and with more volume - the volume improves neuromuscular efficiency and the heavier loads just plain adapt the muscle/connective tissue to pull more weight. As far as the muscle body goes there is no difference between muscle mass gained at higher or lower volume/loading/intensity etc that science has been able to identify.

 

[MikeTheBear]

Here's my ebook on complexes:

https://www.amazon.com/Book-Complex...l+Sasin&qid=1551294816&s=gateway&sr=8-1-spell

 

[Tirofijo]

Strange thread.

I lost track when it went this direction:

A: “Complexes don’t build strength (or hypertrophy).”

B: “Thats weird, because I got stronger (and bigger) doing complexes”

A: “well, sure. Novices can make gains doing anything.”

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I lost track I got stronger (and bigger) doing complexes

Training Complexes

Most resistance training program will increase strength. They will also increase size, muscle mass, providing you consume more calories.

So yes, Training Complexes will work to a degree.

And now to reiterate the but...

Metabolic Training

Training Complexes fall into the category of Metabolic Training; great for GPP Conditioning and increasing post Metabolic Rate, burning body fat.

However, a different protocol for maximizing Limit Strength and Hypertrophy provide a greater effect.

Crescent Wrench Example

The crescent wrench can be used to tighten bolts, drive nails, a weapon to defend yourself, etc.

However, a hammer is a more effective tool for driving a nail.

A knife or gun is a more effective tool for defending your self.

The Take Home Message

Use the right tool for the right job; I cannot emphasize that enough.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[vegpedlr]

Strange thread.

I lost track when it went this direction:

A: “Complexes don’t build strength (or hypertrophy).”

B: “Thats weird, because I got stronger (and bigger) doing complexes”

A: “well, sure. Novices can make gains doing anything.”

Yes, it has drifted sideways a bit.

The point of my OP was to better explain what goals are best met by training with complexes, and conversely, what goals would probably not benefit from such training.

The sideways skid seems to come from how complexes train a couple domains concurrently, which dilutes those gains compared to specialization. Yet people keep raving about them.

The other issue, much less discussed, is comparing training complexes to A+A, and the larger idea of AGT generally, since most complex programs seem to be glycolytic met cons.

The picture in my head is a little bit clearer, but I feel like I’m trying to adjust an old TV wth those little knobs to adjust color, tint, etc.

 

[watchnerd]

Strange thread.

I lost track when it went this direction:

A: “Complexes don’t build strength (or hypertrophy).”

B: “Thats weird, because I got stronger (and bigger) doing complexes”

A: “well, sure. Novices can make gains doing anything.”

Well, yes.

And if you want to maximize hypertrophy, longer rest periods (not typical of what are marketed as fat burning / shredding complexes) are better than shorter:

Infographic: Short Rest Periods = Less Hypertrophy

 

[watchnerd]

The other issue, much less discussed, is comparing training complexes to A+A, and the larger idea of AGT generally, since most complex programs seem to be glycolytic met cons.

I think there are a couple of issues at play.

1. Training vs Exercise

Many people seem to confuse the subjective experience of feeling "smoked" as an indicator of an effective training session.

Getting a "good workout" has replaced "practice".

But unless your goal is to "get good at exercise", the mental concept of "practice" is probably a better framing for progressive training....whether endurance, skill, strength, or hypertrophy.

We'd all be better off remember our youth sports, when there were skill practice days, scrimmage days, conditioning days, etc. But you didn't go hard every single day. You saved max efforts for game days.

2. Time Crunch



We're all crunched for time, so we want one routine that does everything equally well, in as little time as possible. Sadly, biological adaptation is specific.

For me, better use of time is the biggest benefit of using a home gym. And not just the time wasted driving to the gym, changing, working out, showering, changing again, driving back, etc.

Working out at home gives me the luxury of not having to cram everything into as short a period as possible. If I want to do 30 reps of deadlift in a day, 5 per set, spaced 1+ hours apart, I can do that at home.

This is great for GTG / Easy Strength / practice...whatever you want to call it. It's the anti-time crunch.

3. Aesthetics

We're all bombarded by messages about how to "scorch fat".

However, most physique competitors are pretty light on the "scorching". Instead, they focus on building muscle and obsessive control of nutrition.

As effective as that process is, it's a hard sell -- it's long, slow, takes years, and requires a huge lifestyle commitment.

The fitness industry has figured out they can sell a lot more products, classes, supplements, etc, by promising fast, simple solutions to make you look hot naked.

4. Natural vs Juiced

I compete in an IWF/IOC-sanctioned sport where everyone is drug tested, but that's not true of all sports (some powerlifting federations), definitely isn't true of much of top tier bodybuilding, and as for those "celebrity workouts" for role prep for super hero movie actors....nobody talks about how much "assistance" is given to look good in a short amount of time.

If you're juiced, a lot of the rules about specificity and recovery go out the window, or at least radically dialed down. Yes, you can simultaneously get jacked and shredded if you're on the right substance cycle (at least for a time).

But people need to be aware that programs that work when you're geared are different from natural, especially after peak hormones of youth.