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Kettlebell Complexes: Who, When, How?

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Good discussion here. Given that I took the time and effort to write a little ebook on complexes - this was more a labor of love because I ain't getting rich off of it - I am obviously a fan of complexes. However, I completely agree that complexes have their limitations. I also can't stand marketing hype so when I read these "get shredded" articles I roll my eyes bit.
 
Good discussion here. Given that I took the time and effort to write a little ebook on complexes - this was more a labor of love because I ain't getting rich off of it - I am obviously a fan of complexes. However, I completely agree that complexes have their limitations. I also can't stand marketing hype so when I read these "get shredded" articles I roll my eyes bit.

My friend...think how many more ducats you could be getting if you would only embrace the fat scorching?

"Five Minute Kettlebell Shred" would fly off the shelves.
 
Sometimes the generalist is the specialist (Jack of all trades but master of none, but ofentimes better than master of one). And despite the negative connotations, complexes do juice the metabolism. If done intelligently without compromising anything else they can help "shred" one.
 
Strange thread.

I lost track when it went this direction:

A: “Complexes don’t build strength (or hypertrophy).”

B: “Thats weird, because I got stronger (and bigger) doing complexes”

A: “well, sure. Novices can make gains doing anything.”

:rolleyes:
I don't think this is an honest description of the thread. I don't remember anybody saying that complexes don't build strength or hypertrophy. Unless you choose to delibirately take people's words out of context.
 
I do not agree.

-S-

Hmmm, that's not my direct quote... I took that almost verbatim from Prof Zatsiorsky, but it makes sense to me.

You can either get there with volume or intensity or some mix of the two. If you train a muscle using neither, you aren't actually training it. Lacking fatigue, no real demand will have been made that registers. Muscle in particular and strength surplus in general is biologically expensive, the body won't create more without need.

Keeping in mind "fatigued" is not the same as "to failure", or training in a largely unrecovered or short duration unrecoverable state.
 
I still don't agree. I have a need to get better at a skill; I suppose the difference here is that I generally don't care if I've trained a muscle or not. If I've trained my brain and I've gotten stronger, I'm perfectly happy.

-S-
 
Sort of the opposite of Karma - it doesn't matter if there was no intention to train as long it was trained.

"there is training happening, but no one is training"
 
I like your explanation of processes so maybe you can help.

Charles Staley advocates the reduction of junk volume, saying "the assumption that it's really only the final 3 or so painful reps that deliver the benefits of the entire set" -- This makes sense to me with the mechanism of metabolic stress and coincides with traditional bodybuilding techniques.

But ladders, Rite of Passage, Total Tension Complex, etc are all hypertrophy programs that appear to be based on large volume of sets of sub-max reps. So why isn't that "junk volume"? I'm assuming it doesn't stimulate hypertrophy through metabolic stress as much as through mechanical tension & muscle damage...? Is there a difference with triggering myofibrillar vs. sarcoplasmic hypertrophy?

Thanks for any input from any & all!
Nate, I had more or less the same question: Benefit of low reps rungs in ladders? My interpretation of the responses is that these reps might be considered "junk volume" from a hypertrophy perspective, but they are giving you "quality practice" at moving a challenging weight, which improves neural adaptations. @Bro Mo also pointed out that low rungs "warm you up" for better performance on higher rungs. (I thought the goal of RoP is to increase your max press? Strength and hypertrophy are hardly mutually exclusive goals/adaptive processes, and @Steve Freides pointed out that you can adapt the RoP program for more hypertrophy.)

For further reading, see Chris Beardsley's work on Medium Chris Beardsley – Medium where he details the mechanisms behind the "effective reps" logic behind Staley's position. Basically, what Beardsley says is that hypertrophy is optimally stimulated when the high threshold motor units are recruited and fatigued, which only happens during max effort or when lower threshold units are too fatigued to carry out their work (many fine points apply). Reason: low threshold motor units are capable of less hypertrophy because they're already getting lots of stimulation through daily life and because they are biased toward slow twitch fibers; high threshold motor units, biased toward fast twitch fibers, are not active except under special circumstances, and, more to the point, they are bigger than low threshold MUs and therefore contribute more to hypertrophy. This ties in to "effective reps" (and their opposite, "junk volume") because those early reps are the ones that precede the recruitment of high-threshold motor units.

The key article is here: What is training volume?

WRT sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, see Nuckol's post already mentioned: Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy: The Bros Were Probably Right and very recent research by fellow Stronger By Science coach Cody Haun: Muscle fiber hypertrophy in response to 6 weeks of high-volume resistance training in trained young men is largely attributed to sarcoplasmic hypertrophy

There's been a lot of disagreement as to whether or not sarcoplasmic hypertrophy exists in distinction from myofibrillar hypertrophy. Haun's paper suggests yes, but prior research suggests maybe not. Even if sarcoplasmic hypertrophy does exist, it very likely potentiates future strength gains because bigger muscle cells require more myonuclei, and more myonuclei should mean more potential for muscle protein synthesis.
 
Man, I take a break for a few months and come back to this mess! Where do I start?

@Steve Freides and @North Coast Miller You are both right, but that's because you are talking about different things. Steve is talking about improving strength in a lift due to neurological efficiency. Fatigue is not necessary for that, and can actually be counter-productive. Mr. Miller is talking about growing muscle. If you want to gain muscle, you need to fatigue that muscle.

But it says in PttP that doing the "basic" program, i.e., not Bear, will build "hard, dense muscle," yet there is no fatigue. Fatigue is cumulative. My experience on PttP was that after 5 days I felt kind of tired. Not like death. Not so sore that I couldn't move. But I was glad to have 2 days of rest coming up. Fatigue had accumulated. True, there was not a lot of fatigue, but PttP is not about building muscle, so the modest fatigue likely equated with very modest muscle growth - just enough to look "hard and dense."
 
Strange thread.

I lost track when it went this direction:

A: “Complexes don’t build strength (or hypertrophy).”

B: “Thats weird, because I got stronger (and bigger) doing complexes”

A: “well, sure. Novices can make gains doing anything.”


Indeed, a strange thing to say. Here's the thing: being a "novice" is relative. If for the last 5 years you have been doing a low volume strength-only program like PttP, you are a novice when it comes to complexes.
 
I really like the article that was posted. Here it is again: Complexes for Fat Loss, Strength Retention, and Heart Health

As I said in one of my posts in the thread, almost a year ago, I hate hype, especially in fitness. When I wrote my little ebook on complexes I eschewed titles such as "Shredded Fat Loss and Hyooge Gainz for Beast Broz" even though I may have lost a few ducats as a result (appreciate the reference to Medieval currency). Complexes are going to be a compromise - you'll gain some strength and some conditioning. Complexes will not allow you to compete in a powerlifting meet one day and run a marathon the next. They won't even allow you to be good at one of those. But let's look at what we have going on here. Let's take the following complex, which happens to be my favorite:

Hang snatch

Overhead squat

Back squat

Good mornings

Row

Deadlift

Let's say a trainee wants to bias their training for strength so they do 3 reps of each exercise. They work up to 70 kgs x 3 reps for each exercise in the complex. Does this person have a decent level of strength and conditioning? I'd say it's a good start. This person will likely have very little trouble doing everyday things and will have prepared their body for more difficult training.
 
So if complexes are not the greatest thing ever why and when should you do them? Here is my top ten list of when complexes can be used or added into a training plan.

1. I want some conditioning but I hate running and don't want to buy a Prowler right now.
2. Everyone told me swings are great for conditioning, and they are, I love them, but man I could use a little variety.
3. I bought a kettlebell and it's starting to feel a bit light. I am low on funds so can't buy another one just yet. What do I do?
4. I am doing a basic strength program using squat, press, bench press, and deadlift. The template says I should choose my own "assistance exercises." I have no clue what to do for assistance exercises.
5. I am soooo busy!
6. My gym is closed but I have some dumbbells/kettlebells/a light barbell at home.
7. I like the idea of working my entire body each workout, but I don't have the work capacity to do 5x5 for squat, press, bench press, and deadlift in one workout. Hint: Do one of the big 4 for 5x5 and then add a complex.
8. I am a masters Olympic weightlifter and I really need to prioritize strength. I want to do a strength cycle but I still want to keep the lifts in the mix so my technique doesn't go to the crapper.
9. I have a training plan that has a "variety day." I follow the other days religiously but the plan says that i can do anything I want on variety day. What do I do?
10. I really need to lose fat. Yeah, I know, fat loss is all about diet and the exercise program, as some have said, doesn't even matter. My diet is dialed in and I've adjusted to the lower calorie intake. I already take nice easy walks like Dan John recommends. Still I would feel better if I did something a little more challenging, preferably with weights.
 
Just my personal note here. Several years ago I did KBM and used 24s. I came out with a stronger press. I also came out a lot leaner. Basically for me a program of complexes worked well. Everyone is different.

@MikeTheBear has a book on complexes I purchased and it lists many different ones. In a " lock down" situation like most of us are in right now with minimal equipment one can stay in shape by doing complexes!
 
So if complexes are not the greatest thing ever why and when should you do them? Here is my top ten list of when complexes can be used or added into a training plan.

1. I want some conditioning but I hate running and don't want to buy a Prowler right now.
2. Everyone told me swings are great for conditioning, and they are, I love them, but man I could use a little variety.
3. I bought a kettlebell and it's starting to feel a bit light. I am low on funds so can't buy another one just yet. What do I do?
4. I am doing a basic strength program using squat, press, bench press, and deadlift. The template says I should choose my own "assistance exercises." I have no clue what to do for assistance exercises.
5. I am soooo busy!
6. My gym is closed but I have some dumbbells/kettlebells/a light barbell at home.
7. I like the idea of working my entire body each workout, but I don't have the work capacity to do 5x5 for squat, press, bench press, and deadlift in one workout. Hint: Do one of the big 4 for 5x5 and then add a complex.
8. I am a masters Olympic weightlifter and I really need to prioritize strength. I want to do a strength cycle but I still want to keep the lifts in the mix so my technique doesn't go to the crapper.
9. I have a training plan that has a "variety day." I follow the other days religiously but the plan says that i can do anything I want on variety day. What do I do?
10. I really need to lose fat. Yeah, I know, fat loss is all about diet and the exercise program, as some have said, doesn't even matter. My diet is dialed in and I've adjusted to the lower calorie intake. I already take nice easy walks like Dan John recommends. Still I would feel better if I did something a little more challenging, preferably with weights.
You forgot to say that complexes are a lot of fun! That's top of the list to me.
 
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