Kettlebell Does anyone else think the "big jumps" of kettlebells is a little fishy?

[godjira1]

I have been lucky in that I have (ok had) a gym that had KBs in 4kg increments from 8-48kg.

At home I had 16/24/32. I recently bought 20/28/36 on a garage clearance on a gym closing.

The 20 is frankly, not really useful. The jump from 16-24 was quite workable across all the lifts. However 24-32 was tough. With the 28, it really helped with the press especially.

So in summary: if u don’t want to own more the 16/24/32, it will get you there if perhaps taking longer. If you have the $/space/inclination, a 20/28 will help.

My 2c.

 

[Alan Mackey]

We all know that we should go from 16kg to 24kg to 32kg. Ok, maybe you can use 20kg and 28kg if you must, but man up, why don't you?

And we can all agree that there would be no need for any man to use an 18kg bell. It's like putting washers on a barbell, or something. Your body needs that jolt of a noticibly larger load.

Funny thing, though, I read about people working with the 36kg bell. Why not go straight to 40kg? Where I come from 40/32 = 20/16 -- both are 25% increases.

Sometimes I feel like those that have built the strength that makes 4kg a small weight lose track of the fact that a 25% increase is difficult for anyone. Increasing your max 10% for any lift represents a lot of work.

It isn't very affordable to buy a kettlebell for every 2kg increment, but I think that moving up by 2kg should be encouraged up to 24kg if they are available. And if you went straight from pressing 40kg to pressing 48kg, you can feel free to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Well... I have 24 pairs of KBs, ranging from 2 to 48 in two kilo increments. And I also have magnetic Platemates, so I can have 250 gr. , 500 gr. and 1 kg. increments (and any combination using those).

In summary, I can swing, snatch, press, pull or squat from 250 gr. to 50 kg. (each hand), in 250 gr. increments if I ever feel the need.

And guess what? 99% of the time I use the powers of eight: 8, 16, 24, 32, 40 and 48.

Some KBs are still unused and I strongly suspect they will always remain untouched.

Using barbells I tend to follow the same protocol: big plates only. If I can do a single negative, that's fine. And I will keep pounding at it until I can do fifteen crisp, beautiful and easy reps. It may take me a few weeks, or it may take me eight months. That's fine.

I have nothing against microloading and granularity. It's just that big jumps seem to work best for me.

 

[DuncanGB]

It isn't very affordable to buy a kettlebell for every 2kg increment, but I think that moving up by 2kg should be encouraged up to 24kg if they are available.

Weighing in here, so to speak, but pushing 2kg increments up to 24kg is more than a little fishy...

From 16 to 24 to 32 are far from unreasonable jumps for swings given 2-handed to 1-handed progressions

That load now off my mind - the 20 and 28, in my case, have proven to be essential stepping-stones for Q&D and A+A snatch progress respectively

 

[Molson]

Well... I have 24 pairs of KBs, ranging from 2 to 48 in two kilo increments. And I also have magnetic Platemates, so I can have 250 gr. , 500 gr. and 1 kg. increments (and any combination using those).

In summary, I can swing, snatch, press, pull or squat from 250 gr. to 50 kg. (each hand), in 250 gr. increments if I ever feel the need.

And guess what? 99% of the time I use the powers of eight: 8, 16, 24, 32, 40 and 48.

Some KBs are still unused and I strongly suspect they will always remain untouched.

Using barbells I tend to follow the same protocol: big plates only. If I can do a single negative, that's fine. And I will keep pounding at it until I can do fifteen crisp, beautiful and easy reps. It may take me a few weeks, or it may take me eight months. That's fine.

I have nothing against microloading and granularity. It's just that big jumps seem to work best for me.

This!

There is something about the big jumps being ‘fishy’, because it would be really not convenient to try to encourage people to buy 20 different bell sizes and still try to call it a simple or minimalist training tool. So it’s not like there is much choice here, as at some point the barbell is much more convenient cost wise compared to too many kettlebells.

Personally, I like the big jumps and it worked great for me, especially with S&S. But after spending 9 months or so with 40kg my swings are still not where I’d like to see them. So, not buying the 36kg, I’m aware now that I’m missing the sweet spot weight for one arm swinging. Still, I’m not convinced i’d need it for anything else that I could do for reps.

 

[godjira1]

I relooked at my old log for achieving timed simple back in 2018. I used the 20kg and 28kg in the gym for swings, but for TGU just went with the 16/24/32 (I am guessing I did the latter at home then). I suspect some lifts will benefit from finer gradation, as my current experience with snatches is teaching me, while other lifts are easier to take a big jump with.

 

[Eric Wilson]

Thanks for the responses.

I'll clarify my meaning.

I'm trying to get my press to where I can use 16kg regularly. Currently it's my 2rm.

I weigh 130, 47yo, in first year of training. Going from 16kg to 24kg for swings was ok-ish. For TGU it was dangerous (for me).

When Paval does his macho "for any man, there is no need ..." I find it mildly oppressive, and a bit disingenuous. He'll write programs that say "choose a bell that you can press 5-8 times".

We all know that because of big jumps, for some of us, the heaviest such bell is one that we can press 12 times, which makes the rep scheme break down.

SF sells kettlebells by 2kg, up to 20kg. Why? Because enough people know that big jumps are not always a feature to create the demand for 14kg and 18kg bells.

 

[watchnerd]

We all know that we should go from 16kg to 24kg to 32kg. Ok, maybe you can use 20kg and 28kg if you must, but man up, why don't you?

And we can all agree that there would be no need for any man to use an 18kg bell. It's like putting washers on a barbell, or something. Your body needs that jolt of a noticibly larger load.

Funny thing, though, I read about people working with the 36kg bell. Why not go straight to 40kg? Where I come from 40/32 = 20/16 -- both are 25% increases.

Sometimes I feel like those that have built the strength that makes 4kg a small weight lose track of the fact that a 25% increase is difficult for anyone. Increasing your max 10% for any lift represents a lot of work.

It isn't very affordable to buy a kettlebell for every 2kg increment, but I think that moving up by 2kg should be encouraged up to 24kg if they are available. And if you went straight from pressing 40kg to pressing 48kg, you can feel free to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Full disclosure: my KB set goes from 8-40kg in 4 kg increments.

The big jumps justification smacks of rationalization from the days when only the big increments were available -- there were no other options, so you had to make do.

A greater variety of weight ranges gives more programming options.

Minimally sophisticated periodized training doesn't use only one weight range, anyway.

I happen to implement DUP programming in a HLM sequence for my KB C&P programming; I use entirely different weights and rep ranges on heavy days (85%), light (65%), and medium (75%) days.

If you have a wider variety of weight ranges, you have more programming options.

And if you want to shock your system with a big jump -- you still can -- more variety doesn't prevent that.

But it's good to be in a situation where programming big jumps isn't your *only* option.

 

[watchnerd]

Your body needs that jolt of a noticibly larger load.

[I know you're quoting]

Kind of true, but also over-simplified....

Your body needs a novel stimulus. That doesn't only have to come from a larger load.

Adaptive hypertrophy and super compensation can come from 3 sources:

1. Muscle damage
2. Mechanical tension
3. Metabolic stress

Manipulating only #2 isn't the only way to get strong / big.

Relying only on #2 is one of the reasons why linear progression stalls out after you get past the newbie stage and you have to move to periodized training.

Good programming mixes #2 and #3.

 

[John Grahill]

@Eric Wilson, I am not really understanding what you are asking. I will say this...you mention that Pavel mentions using a 5 to 8 rep "requirement" for given programs. The ROP is one of those. You indicate you are having trouble meeting the press requirements with the 16. In my mind, no shame in dropping back to say a 25 pounder....remember, you're building strength not demonstrating it!

On the other hand about 2 years ago I did a bout of the ROP with a 28 kg. At the time I was able to strict press a beast for about 3 reps each side so obviously the weight was "light" for me. The result was excellent....I focused on doing the c&p's with impeccable form and did the same with bodyweight pull ups along with the presses. I ended up "looking" better afterward and got a better press groove or at least I think I did. It made me realize that you never truly outgrow the basic stuff. Just do what you can and do it well and it will pay off.

 

[Don Fairbanks]

Thanks for the responses.

I'll clarify my meaning.

I'm trying to get my press to where I can use 16kg regularly. Currently it's my 2rm.

I weigh 130, 47yo, in first year of training. Going from 16kg to 24kg for swings was ok-ish. For TGU it was dangerous (for me).

When Paval does his macho "for any man, there is no need ..." I find it mildly oppressive, and a bit disingenuous. He'll write programs that say "choose a bell that you can press 5-8 times".

We all know that because of big jumps, for some of us, the heaviest such bell is one that we can press 12 times, which makes the rep scheme break down.

SF sells kettlebells by 2kg, up to 20kg. Why? Because enough people know that big jumps are not always a feature to create the demand for 14kg and 18kg bells.

@Eric Wilson , a saying I heard, " It is like being in Maui and complaining about the potholes in the street." KB's,BB's, BW, StrongFirst, that is Maui. Comments like jumps and poods and the like are potholes. Keep cranking man.

 

[watchnerd]

There has been more recent research that the conventional wisdom regarding rep range zones is more fluid than traditionally thought:

 

[John K]

Thanks for the responses.

I'll clarify my meaning.

I'm trying to get my press to where I can use 16kg regularly. Currently it's my 2rm.

I weigh 130, 47yo, in first year of training. Going from 16kg to 24kg for swings was ok-ish. For TGU it was dangerous (for me).

When Paval does his macho "for any man, there is no need ..." I find it mildly oppressive, and a bit disingenuous. He'll write programs that say "choose a bell that you can press 5-8 times".

We all know that because of big jumps, for some of us, the heaviest such bell is one that we can press 12 times, which makes the rep scheme break down.

SF sells kettlebells by 2kg, up to 20kg. Why? Because enough people know that big jumps are not always a feature to create the demand for 14kg and 18kg bells.

Hi Eric - I can understand that frustration, especially if you are trying to train on your own. I think this is where it is a great idea to work with a coach or trainer or SFG. There's a lot you can do to progress, but it takes a conversation to get to know you, your training, learning how you recover, etc. and in-person or video review of how you move. I tried starting my kettlebell journey with a 16kg and a 24kg, but quickly found that a 12kg and a 20kg were massive helps in progressing and regressing.

 

[watchnerd]

which makes the rep scheme break down.

Programs are just templates designed without knowledge of every individual who might use them. Good ones work for the majority of people, call it 80% of time.

"Personal training" (whether self-created or hired) involves knowledge of the individual and customizing the programming.more

There is a programming path to get you where you want to go.

Doing more volume with the 12 kg is not a waste of time to get you closer to pressing 16 kg for more reps.

The research tells is it's about how many challenging reps/sets we have.

If you find things get hard at the 12th rep of a 12kg, that's fine -- utilize that knowledge.

Do more of what's challenging, and not hurtful, within the capabilities you have and the equipment you have.

Doing 12-15 reps of 12 kg is fine, as long as you're challenging yourself.

 

[Steve Freides]

Thanks for the responses.

I'll clarify my meaning.

I'm trying to get my press to where I can use 16kg regularly. Currently it's my 2rm.

I weigh 130, 47yo, in first year of training. Going from 16kg to 24kg for swings was ok-ish. For TGU it was dangerous (for me).

When Pavel does his macho "for any man, there is no need ..." I find it mildly oppressive, and a bit disingenuous. He'll write programs that say "choose a bell that you can press 5-8 times".

We all know that because of big jumps, for some of us, the heaviest such bell is one that we can press 12 times, which makes the rep scheme break down.

SF sells kettlebells by 2kg, up to 20kg. Why? Because enough people know that big jumps are not always a feature to create the demand for 14kg and 18kg bells.

@Eric Wilson, I have suggested before that you work with an SFG or post videos of your press, getup, or other lifts here. I repeat that suggestion to you now.

If you don't like how Pavel expresses himself, I'm not quite sure what to tell you. I'm sure it's not intended to oppress, and in the minds of most of us, what he says is consistent, genuine, and honest to the point of bluntness. I'd say probably more than just "most," likely the overwhelming majority. Some of us are put off by the communication style of others - that seems to be the case here for you. I'm not sure quite what voicing your disapproval of Pavel's style here accomplishes for you or for anyone. There are plenty of other sources of strength and conditioning advice and programming out there.

As to what StrongFirst sells in terms of kettlebell sizes and why, you may speculate as much as you wish, but if you read the other posts in this thread, you'll find many people saying that larger jumps are good until one is nearly at one's 1RM, at which point large increases may not work. Several folks voiced the opinion that going from 16 to 24 kg worked for them but 24 to 32 did not, and I'm one of those people - I created a homemade 28 kg for myself with a few small plates and duct tape. Adjust those numbers for women, and the sizes we sell begin to make a lot of sense.

So, Eric, I ask, "What can we do for you?" We are happy to help you become stronger, but just discussing the matter won't help you any more than my telling you how to play the piano will cause you to learn to play the piano. Strength is a skill, and most of us here believe that an improvement in your skill will make the subject weights seem significantly different to you. Not everyone needs a teacher for everything, and we each have our own path, but I know I would never have had the success I've had in lifting without a lot of one-on-one and group instruction. And I sure as heck wouldn't have learned to play the piano without a lot of lessons.

I'll note, as I have in the past, that although I'm not 130 lbs., I'm 150 lbs. and the 2002 date I mentioned as buying my first 24 kg bells found me at your age 47, and still in the process of recovering from a debilitating back injury 4-1/2 years prior. I believe, and I think I speak for most others here when I see _we_ believe, that you can press a 24 kg kettlebell if you'll let one or more of us teach you how to do it. More than that, we cannot offer you, IMO.

-S-

 

[watchnerd]

Because enough people know that big jumps are not always a feature to create the demand for 14kg and 18kg bells.

If you think it's useful for you to have a 14 kg bell to progress more smoothly, that's fine.

When I did S&S, I used 4 kg jumps instead of 8 kg. I modified the progression tables to do the jumps in half the time with half the weight.

 

[the hansenator]

Doing more volume with the 12 kg is not a waste of time to get you closer to pressing 16 kg for more reps.

Didn't Pavel T write that many sets with a lighter weight will build stength? There's also that study which found that sets up to 30 reps still build strength as long as it's a max effort.

 

[WxHerk]

Simple answer is that at sub 24kg kbs its really not much of an issue for ballistic movements. If one is in reasonably good shape the advancement isn't too strenuous.

Im going with Pavel and all the other wiser posters here...OWN the kb before moving up.
There is absolutely no reason to rush things as this isnt a competition...its "practice".
Btw...i'll be 59 in September and had a TGU with the 40kg as a goal. We'll see, but if im not 100% confident before attempting, I won't try it.

As far as sub 24kg: true dat!! For most men it is more getting used to the movement than adapting to the weight.

Absolutely on the second point. Last year I was deployed six months with nothing heavier than a 36kg. Usually 3, sometimes 4 or 5 getups each side at least five days a week, getting to where I owned that bell and spent a lot of time "taking my time." Got home and hit my longtime goal of a 48kg getup!!

Of course, I'm still a kid as I'll be 57 in September!!

 

[watchnerd]

Didn't Pavel T write that many sets with a lighter weight will build stength? There's also that study which found that sets up to 30 reps still build strength as long as it's a max effort.

Yep. There are *many* studies that show it's the number of hard reps/sets per week that drive change. See the infographic and article I posted above. ^^^

On my light days, I "regress" down to a 24 kg bell, but I do it for 15 reps (press). 15 reps@24kg is challenging for me.

If you read the post I did on BFR, I smoked my legs doing modest sets of low rest of *air squats* because the BFR cuffs make the exertion so hard.

It's all about the effort.

Or as they say in bodyweight training, "don't be a rep chaser" -- do whatever range makes it hard, as opposed to some arbitrary number.

 

[mar2safety]

I personally prefer 4 kg jumps. I tried the 8 kg jumps doing S&S, and worked well for TGU but ended up with minor issues with the swings. All problems were solved when I started swinging the 28, and I achieved Simple shrotly after.

In the context of S&S, 8 kg might make some sense. However, they seem excessive to me for presses and snatches. Snatching the 32 noth having ever touched a 28, is it even safe?

4 kg is a big enough jump, in my opinion. It can range from 12% to 25% increase for most common sizes of kettlebells, that's plenty. Furthermore, even if its "only" 12% when using the 32, many of us are approaching our limit when using the 32 for many exercises, like presses or snatches, so why would we want a 25% increase when working close to out limit?

I went from 16 to 32 on S&S, with 4kg jumps. It allowed for quicker progression of adding heavier sets. Just personal preference, but I really liked the smoother, easier 4kg jumps.

 

[Antti]

I started training with kettlebells 15 or so years ago. They were a new thing and hard to get. With a narrow bodyweight training background, I started with a 16kg kettlebell. I loved the exercise and progressed quickly, as we all do with a new stimulus. I went shopping for a new kettlebell, considered either a 24kg or a 28kg kettlebell, tried the 28kg out and found out I could press it, not perfectly, but sufficiently, and of course bought it instead of the 24kg one. I did regret the choice later on but with more perspective I think it was a good learning experience.

Some time forward I had added some 24kg and smaller ones as well. But bigger kettlebells were hard to get. I decided to order a 32kg kettlebell. To save me time and shipping I was bold and ordered a 40kg kettlebell as well, just for later on. The day the kettlebells arrived, I managed to press the 40kg kettlebell for a double.

So I feel I can say that staying with a certain weight for longer certainly works, and that one can make big, big jumps. At least to a certain point, at a certain pace. However, I think smaller jumps and more choices with loading is in general better. Of course, we can talk about minimalism and finances and room and such, or goals with strength endurance etc, but if the goal is to get to a higher level of absolute strength in an exercise efficiently and one has the means, smaller jumps are better. I think the old time big jumps between kettlebell sizes are a negative aspect, and nothing but such.