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Kettlebell Geoff Neupert "THE GIANT" ??

patterner said:
I agree will all the above.

I did mine with a 24+16 which was a "clean" 8RM for me with a couple of dirty reps on the end, but I just went for it, and made sure to manage my reset well as they mentioned above.
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Oooof
I would struggle with that kinda difference 4 kg is hard enough.
 
Well I have to say The sets of 6 weren't as bad as I thought.

Felt far more in the groove & I rested more as advised.

I dice role for the time I train between 20 & 30.
Both times I got 24 mins for my workout.
I misjudged my rest on two of the sets & struggled on the last rep but I don't have the weird tension in my face & aching jaw muscles as last time which I think was a pretty good indication that I was going too hard.


I did test my 10 RM about 15 minutes before my 1st workout & think it could of had a detrimental effect on the session.
 
@Cearball yes I think you're right, your rep max test could certainly have had an effect on your workout but nice job any way!

I found this week's heavy session a lot more challenging than I thought it would be. I survived and it gave me a starting point.
 
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Geoff Neupert said:
@Provx ,

Yes, 2 reasons:
1. Most Americans can't Jerk. Poor shoulder mo-stability and poor t-spine mobility.
2. The Press requires the least coordination of the 3 overhead lifts.

If you can Jerk or Push Press, you can use either of those lifts, or all 3 for these programs.

For maximum benefit, start with a weight you can Jerk 10-12x, but not Push Press 10-12x. Roll through 1-3 of the programs, then retest your Jerk. Then test your Push Press. It should have moved up to the 10-12x range.

Then repeat the cycle with your Push Presses, using a slow/active negative to train the Press.

Then you *should* be ready to run it with your Press.

Hope that helps.
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Not only that but I found the jerk much more difficult than the snatch to learn even if you have the mobility. I know I am not the only one. I received a few sessions of instruction from a KB sport instructor, so I got feedback on errors of timing etc. Like Olympic lifts, I don't think I would do it without instruction. However, explosive push presses are probably underrated as a quick lift that can be made distinctive from the slower grind of the press and a much lower learning curve, especially with the double KB to mimic an Olympic-type power movement.
 
Brookes said:
Finished 3.0. After 4 + 1 weeks I raised my RM from 5 to 8 as supposed.

@Geoff Neupert : Does your recommendation to progress to 1.0 afterwards still remain with a 8RM or is it preferable to stay with 3.0, until I test a confident 10RM, which is your recommendation in the program?

In my experience with your programs, it‘s usually a grave mistake to ignore your RM, even if one tends to the masochistic sides of life! ?

Thanks in advance!
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I use the definition "technical rep max' that Fabio Zonin explained at a PlanStrong Seminar. The rep where form starts to suffer or slow down noticeably, not the amount of reps you are able to complete.
 
ron_boston said:
I did KB Giant 1.0. Well, not exactly as according to plan--I did it IN ADDITION TO other work (i.e. integrated it into other training), and not precisely on a M.W.F schedule, so it's not a pure test of the program. But FWIW:
- At any given weight, the "press" part is much harder than the "clean" part. I found that my 10RM at the beginning was 2 x 25 lb. kettlebells (sorry, my gym uses KBs in American weights, not metric). I felt silly double-cleaning 2x25# since I normally one-handed swing more than that, but that was as much as I could press the 10 times. I think my 2x35# max C&P was maybe 5 reps.
- I did it for 20 min each time, and recorded my sets by marking a tick in a notepad. At the end of each session, I'd count up how many sets & reps that equaled, and try to beat it. (This often involved pushing hard towards the end of the 20 min.)
- After 4 weeks of the program, I re-tested my max reps. I could now C&P 2x25# for *20* reps (i.e. doubled), and 2x35# for 10 reps.
So it definitely performed as advertised! I was pleased.
I'm not sure how much of a role the cleans performed. They weren't taxing at all (if they had been taxing, I wouldn't have been able to press them). One possibility is that they provide a very brief semi-rest between presses. Another possibility is that they help in some subtler way by setting you up for the presses. Another possibility is that the program would work fine if you just did the presses without the cleans--I have no idea. All I can say is that the density-based approach doubled my max reps in 4 weeks.
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The cleans provide a lower body workout as well and a conditioning element and save the shoulders it seems to me compared to press only, which can lead to overuse and muscle imbalance if pulls are not included over the course of a year of programming.
 
Reardon55 said:
Seconded! Though he may have outdone himself; I'm on the Chasing Strength e-mail list, but don't see why I would need to buy anything else for at least a few months.....:)

When I started, the cleans were more like a good opportunity for rest between the presses. Now that my presses are stronger, the cleans are.....just brutal. It feels like the end of a 400m dash....maybe even with the hurdles..... by the end of the later sets. The "overall body" effect of this program is..... (a "trainer" would maybe have a good adjective here; I don't).

And yes, I don't suspect I'll be near-doubling the reps by week 4 (like I was with 3.0) :) . Maybe I'll sandbag a bit on Wednesday and Friday. I'm not sure what I would "call" today, but I can't call it sandbagging.
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I agree. Cleans and push presses with double KB are seriously underrated. Legs like Jello when I first started double KB work with cleans on every rep. If you really want a challenge, reset each rep for singles. The cleans will be more challenging and the brief "rest" might enable more volume in density type programs like Geoff's. He mentions this in the KB strong PDF.
 
Just did workout 3 sets of 4.
30 mins 72 reps. A 40% increase on reps/minute compared to my other sessions.

This tallies up with my experience in the past with density type training.
The lower the reps/set normally bag me the most reps.
Sometimes the best option is singles for 30 minutes for example.

Maybe this means I have really bad endurance.....

So I guess what I am wondering is for most people which days tend to be your high higher volume days. The lower reps/set or the higher reps/set?
 
@Cearball I too find that the lower rep sets yield the biggest rep total per workout. I thought about it a bit and realized that doing the higher rep sets (above 5s) is quite systemically taxing ??? which requires a bit more recharge?? I'm not sure I explained that correctly.
 
Cearball said:
Just did workout 3 sets of 4.
30 mins 72 reps. A 40% increase on reps/minute compared to my other sessions.

This tallies up with my experience in the past with density type training.
The lower the reps/set normally bag me the most reps.
Sometimes the best option is singles for 30 minutes for example.

Maybe this means I have really bad endurance.....

So I guess what I am wondering is for most people which days tend to be your high higher volume days. The lower reps/set or the higher reps/set?
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Interesting question. I think it depends on (probably a whole bunch of factors but....generally, assuming your limiting factor on your RM is your pressing strength) how conditioned you are and what percentage of your rep-max the heavy, medium and light days actually are. If your light day is a low percentage of your actual RM on that day, then your limiting factor will be probably be your "conditioning" (i.e., you're waiting for your heart rate to recover enough so that you can keep doing subsequent sets without so much glycolysis). On the heavy side, my understanding is that ATP replenishes non-linearly (i.e., the first ~3/4 comes back pretty fast; but the last ~1/4 takes a lot longer); so if you push much past needing ~3/4 of your ATP for each set, your rest periods start having to increase exponentially the further past ~3/4 you go.

So my last 2-weeks of 1.0: Heavy day went from 43 to 54; Medium day went from 57 to 66; and light day went from 68 to 76. So in week 1, "light" was about 60% more than heavy; and in week 2; it was 40% more than heavy. I guess that means my RM went up, all other things being equal (which they probably aren't; how my elbow and callouses felt, how much I slept, how hydrated I was, work stress; etc.)

In theory, at some point (if I just stayed with 1.0 with the same weights), my actual RM would increase enough that these numbers would actually turn around (which is effectively what happened when I did 3.0; but the heavy day is 3x the light day; not 1.5x the light day like it is on 1.0) but at that point, I would not be working with anything close to my 10RM anymore, so I would no longer be doing "the program". I suspect the program progression from 1.0-1.2 is set up to anticipate normal progress most people would make so that the heavy/light range is always in this window. If you just jumped straight in to 1.2 using your ~10RM, I'd think you would spend a LOT of time resting between heavy day sets..... I don't plan on testing it out ? .

If your limiting factor on your RM isn't your pressing strength, but maybe that you "gas out" from the cleans; perhaps the above is completely non-applicable..... (actually, I'm no trainer; and it certainly may be "non-applicable" anyway ;)).
 
John Grahill said:
@Cearball I too find that the lower rep sets yield the biggest rep total per workout. I thought about it a bit and realized that doing the higher rep sets (above 5s) is quite systemically taxing ??? which requires a bit more recharge?? I'm not sure I explained that correctly.
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This made sense to me.

Totally agree in my experiment of one aswell.
 
Reardon55 said:
Interesting question. I think it depends on (probably a whole bunch of factors but....generally, assuming your limiting factor on your RM is your pressing strength) how conditioned you are and what percentage of your rep-max the heavy, medium and light days actually are. If your light day is a low percentage of your actual RM on that day, then your limiting factor will be probably be your "conditioning" (i.e., you're waiting for your heart rate to recover enough so that you can keep doing subsequent sets without so much glycolysis). On the heavy side, my understanding is that ATP replenishes non-linearly (i.e., the first ~3/4 comes back pretty fast; but the last ~1/4 takes a lot longer); so if you push much past needing ~3/4 of your ATP for each set, your rest periods start having to increase exponentially the further past ~3/4 you go.

So my last 2-weeks of 1.0: Heavy day went from 43 to 54; Medium day went from 57 to 66; and light day went from 68 to 76. So in week 1, "light" was about 60% more than heavy; and in week 2; it was 40% more than heavy. I guess that means my RM went up, all other things being equal (which they probably aren't; how my elbow and callouses felt, how much I slept, how hydrated I was, work stress; etc.)

In theory, at some point (if I just stayed with 1.0 with the same weights), my actual RM would increase enough that these numbers would actually turn around (which is effectively what happened when I did 3.0; but the heavy day is 3x the light day; not 1.5x the light day like it is on 1.0) but at that point, I would not be working with anything close to my 10RM anymore, so I would no longer be doing "the program". I suspect the program progression from 1.0-1.2 is set up to anticipate normal progress most people would make so that the heavy/light range is always in this window. If you just jumped straight in to 1.2 using your ~10RM, I'd think you would spend a LOT of time resting between heavy day sets..... I don't plan on testing it out ? .

If your limiting factor on your RM isn't your pressing strength, but maybe that you "gas out" from the cleans; perhaps the above is completely non-applicable..... (actually, I'm no trainer; and it certainly may be "non-applicable" anyway ;)).
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Can I just clear up when you say heavy you mean the sets with the higher amount of reps /set & light are the sets with the fewest reps / set right?
 
This program seems to be a homerun. Maybe even surpassing the popularity of some classic Neupert programs? Curious if there is a fundamental philosophy difference in the giant series to some past programs like strong that is making it so popular. Also is there a diet recommendation in the book? I have been using Geoffs 24 hour diet guidelines lately but unsure if he still thinks this the best path.
 
some quick thoughts (in no particular order; and I'm not sure if ANY of these are really philosophical, per se) on why I like it anyway:
  • It fits pretty well with the "Strongfirst WOD" strategy article (that may be coincidental timing with that article getting published)
  • It's always a fixed time (20m - 30m); or it can be...
  • It allows you to "track" your progress (and feel like you made some; unless you didn't) on a session by session basis.....as opposed to "Strong!", for instance, which is a little more subjective as you move through it
  • It kind of pushes you to the edge of overtraining, without letting you TRULY over-train (takes the reins off, a bit, but only a bit)....it's safely hard; and hard enough that you have to have faith that it's working to keep with it, but not so hard that the sessions are completely miserable to get through (as the rowing-interval sessions I've done for past few months tend to be)
  • It's......EFFECTIVE (not that the others aren't; I've read many of the others, but I've only actually DONE Strong!)
If there is nutrition advice, I missed it (though the teaser e-mail inspired me to buy my first tomahawk rib-eye!.....which I spilled melted butter onto the fire below and charred the heck out of :mad:......., should have just stuck with salt and pepper)
 
I think I can sum it up simply. I love the Strong! Program and have run phases one and/or two several times, with a few different exercises and several different combinations from double 32s to double 40s. It works well.

With the Giant Program, I can use a 5 RM and do pure strength work like phase 1 of Strong! but actually get more volume because it doesn't stop at a fixed number of sets but rather it's run for 20 to 30 minutes.

In the other Giant series ( 1, 1.1, 1.2 and 2) they are similar to phases 2 and 3 except they allow for auto regulation as opposed to controlled short rest periods which allows me to take my time and progress at my own speed. If I reach the level of "short rests" such as phase 2 and 3 of Strong!, again I can get more volume since there's no set amount of reps to do.

Additionally, these Giant Programs can be done with a single kettlebell or double kettlebells. I did 1.0 a few years ago with a single bell and made some excellent gains.

Strong! is still a super program that in my opinion always delivers, just like the ROP!
 
Cearball said:
Just did workout 3 sets of 4.
30 mins 72 reps. A 40% increase on reps/minute compared to my other sessions.

This tallies up with my experience in the past with density type training.
The lower the reps/set normally bag me the most reps.
Sometimes the best option is singles for 30 minutes for example.

Maybe this means I have really bad endurance.....

So I guess what I am wondering is for most people which days tend to be your high higher volume days. The lower reps/set or the higher reps/set?
Click to expand...

I expect most people would say that the higher sets require more recovery and tax the shoulders more which is harder to recover from. We could probably all keep doing cleans or at least swings after our press has given out. Those who have put in more swings compared to presses may be a factor as well.
 
guardian7 said:
The cleans provide a lower body workout as well and a conditioning element and save the shoulders it seems to me compared to press only, which can lead to overuse and muscle imbalance if pulls are not included over the course of a year of programming.
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Kettlebell pullovers are a nice finisher after The Giant, in my experience.

And it's not too taxing since you're lying on the floor. ;)
 
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