Kettlebell Heavy GU: Risk vs Reward (Was "Alactic + Aerobic")

[Papa Georgio]

I've never done a getup with a bell I couldn't press. For me this gives me some safety margin in that if a bell starts to go astray during a getup for whatever reason, I can usually muscle it back to position.
This takes out some of the risk.

I would agree that capping your tgu off at your press weight (be it a military press or a floor press) is pretty safe, but I think your leaving a lot on the table. Most people are capable of safely developing a tgu much higher than their press. In fact that’s really how the tgu helps the press by being to stabilize and support a much heavier weight than what you can press. But I understand you have to manage your own risk and to each his own.

 

[Davidlbn]

Hi @Anna C. Sorry if my reply wasn't clear. I'm not suggesting that one should limit your TGU to your press weight. Rather it's a personal observation of my training and what I feel comfortable with. When I get a new bigger bell, the first thing I do is try to press it. If I can't, I don't seem to have the confidence necessary to attempt a TGU with it, so I put it aside and continue with my current bell until I can. But I'm guessing that I will find as I go up in KB weight that I may no longer be able to manage that.
I train alone so I never have a spotter to back me up on new lifts.

@Gepet I've been running S&S for several months now. I'm at timeless simple. I've just got a 36, which I pressed yesterday (only once! L+R) so I'll start integrating it into S&S in the next month or so.
A while back I was not doing TGUs at all but was following this The Down & Dirty OCR Strength Training Program | StrongFirst which includes presses. I was pressing/push-pressing a 28 for sets of 3 when I changed to S&S. I then struggled for a while to get my TGUs up to speed. I was really battling with a 24 at first.
For me TGUs have a much better crossover to presses than vice versa. This may be because my primary sport is paddling (kayak and SUP) which which I've always found keeps my press relatively strong even without specific press training.

 

[Alexander Halford]

Most people are capable of safely developing a tgu much higher than their press.

I agree with that. TGU is one of the single-handed kettlebell exercises which enables you to have the heaviest weight over your head while standing, along with kettlebell bent press and C&J.
Another thought, not fully related to previous - TGU maybe not the best exercise to attempt one-max, but it needs to be done from time to time (carefully planned as a program), like in any other max strength exercise, if you want your numbers improved in your daily working range, so your usual 60-70% of 1RM for 10 reps in the sets of S&S will grow, while done safely and with confidence, to remain injury-free and enjoy all the advantages of the TGU. Because, really, the thing is not constantly hit TGU maxes, like some known monsters, but to be able to kick into Zen doing 100 x 48 kg comfortably, like one of our friends here did.
Truth, the more I do TGU, the more I understand Gray Cook about having it as an exercise of choice. It is amazing, and slowly, but surely becoming my one of the two exercises of choice. My choice is also affected by personal aspect - I'm very impatient person, and this was my conscious pick-up of the tool to teach me patience and control.
So, reward is surely bigger than the risk, in my humble opinion.

 

[Steve Freides]

For those who also wish to perform the one-arm standing kettlebell military press, a few possibilities exist.

One would be simply to incorporate pressing the bell from various positions in the GU from the very beginning.

Another would be to master the getup with a particular weight and then scale back the GU enough to allow for press practice with the same weight, then resume the getup with a heavier weight, and so on.

-S-

 

[pet']

Hello,

Dan John exactly says what @Steve Freides mentions, with a 24kg bell. I tried it and this is not as easy as it looks because you end up with 7 or 8 presses.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Steve Freides]

@pet', yes, but you could certainly dial back the number of presses so that all you do is get up, lower to rack, press overhead, and get down. That might be the best of all worlds for someone wanting to do both with a relatively heavy weight.

-S-

 

[watchnerd]

Hi @Anna C. Sorry if my reply wasn't clear. I'm not suggesting that one should limit your TGU to your press weight. Rather it's a personal observation of my training and what I feel comfortable with. When I get a new bigger bell, the first thing I do is try to press it. If I can't, I don't seem to have the confidence necessary to attempt a TGU with it, so I put it aside and continue with my current bell until I can. But I'm guessing that I will find as I go up in KB weight that I may no longer be able to manage that.
I train alone so I never have a spotter to back me up on new lifts.

I have a similar situation, train without spotter.

Before I TGU a new heavy weight, I do dead clean to strict press to waiter walk + walking lunges with it. Once I can do that for 4 sets x 50 feet with ease, I'm ready to try TGUs.

I'll also do windmills with a bell one size down.

Why?

High mileage shoulders, with past torn RT cuff and pec minor injuries on left side, and multiple dislocations from football and rugby on the right side.

 

[pet']

Hello,

I took advantage of the lockdown to tackle S&S again and going beyond Simple, that I reached some years ago.

Right before the lockdown, I did a cycle of RoP with the 24. Before it, I was barely able to do one rep with the 28. After RoP, it was "moderately heavy".

After drilling the GU with 24 and 28 I quickly got back my 32 GU and now my 36. So I think that press or shoulder level work (as mentioned by @watchnerd ) transfer very well to heavier GU.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[WxHerk]

Last June, at age 55, I pr'd my press at 44kg and hit a 48kg TGU. This was just after a six month deployment where the heaviest KB I had was 36kg. At least 3 TGUs per side ~5X a week with that bell and a ton of A&A snatches with the 32kg and occasional 36kg were the bulk of my training for that entire six months.

OH, I also assisted in two StrongFirst Germany events featuring Pavel Macek and Fabio Zonin hosted by @SvenRieger , Luca La Torre, and @Harald Motz with almost every German SFG and a most Italian and English SFG's as well. This definitely pumped me up and further heated the internal fire. Don't ever discount the mental/psychological aspect. It is the ultimate difference maker.

So in my experience, one can getup more weight than the press, which stands to reason.

 

[watchnerd]

So in my experience, one can getup more weight than the press, which stands to reason.

Ah, but can you get up more than you can jerk?

(I can't, but that may be because I compete in Olifting, so a KB jerk for me is subset of what I BB jerk)

 

[WxHerk]

Ah, but can you get up more than you can jerk?

(I can't, but that may be because I compete in Olifting, so a KB jerk for me is subset of what I BB jerk)

I seriously doubt that I can. My 48kg getup was definitely “the Princess kissing the frog.” It was an apex morning, considering I’d just PR’d with an easyish 44kg getup so decided to make a serious effort with the 48kg. I’ll likely not try another 48kg getup, as I believe it’s not worth the risk.

I have jerked the 48kg several times and felt I had a little extra In the tank.

 

[pet']

Hello,

I can GU 36 but not jerk 32. Currently, 28 would be my max with proper form as far as jerk goes.

Beyond "raw strength" I think there is a matter of technique as well. For instance, I was able some time ago to bent press 40kg. Nonetheless, back then I was not able to strict press 28. Currently, even a 24 feels "heavy" on the bent press

If I were to do it again, I think I would do a better job bent pressing due to the stretch it implies. To a certain extent, bent pressing is the "TGU of the press": combination of strength, mobility, coordination.

How Heavy Should I Go in a Get-up? | StrongFirst

Once a student owns the movement, then a much heavier bell can (and should) be used. The get-up is not just a light warm-up mobility exercise

www.strongfirst.com

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[North Coast Miller]

Ah, but can you get up more than you can jerk?

(I can't, but that may be because I compete in Olifting, so a KB jerk for me is subset of what I BB jerk)

There is no way I could TGU what I can Jerk. Have done sets of 2 reps with 90lbs and was all I had, sets of 2 jerk with 90lbs not a problem.

 

[watchnerd]

I seriously doubt that I can.

I have jerked the 48kg several times and felt I had a little extra In the tank.

Hello,

I can GU 36 but not jerk 32. Currently, 28 would be my max with proper form as far as jerk goes.

There is no way I could TGU what I can Jerk. Have done sets of 2 reps with 90lbs and was all I had, sets of 2 jerk with 90lbs not a problem.

I find this really interesting, from a historical perspective.

I was under the impression that, back in the old timey days, the get up was just one method of getting a weight up overhead 'anyhow'.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I find this really interesting, from a historical perspective.

I was under the impression that, back in the old timey days, the get up was just one method of getting a weight up overhead 'anyhow'.

The Bent Press anyway. The TGU was more of a conditioning move IIRC.

 

[Don Fairbanks]

I figure if I continue to practice GU's for the rest of my life, even if it is with 4kg, I will always be able to get off of the ground.

 

[Bauer]

I figure if I continue to practice GU's for the rest of my life, even if it is with 4kg, I will always be able to get off of the ground.

I figure you might even be able to get up

 

[Don Fairbanks]

I figure you might even be able to get up

True story. What started this train of thought was a friend of mine talking about taking his dad to his kids track meet, they were sitting on the grass and at the end of the meet his dad could not get up without help. I told him to keep doing his GU's for the rest of his life." I plan on it," was the response

 

[Neuro-Bob]

Perspective of a heavy getup enthusiast....

HEAVY GETUP
Perceived risk: the bell will smash one’s head.

Experienced reality: I do at least one 48kg getup per training session. Have been doing 48kg getups for over a year on a regular basis. Have had to bail exactly three times. All three times with the slightest tilt away from ME, the bell has landed 2-3ft from any body part and rolled safely away.

The lesson: whatever exercise you go heavy in, you have to have an exit/fail plan. A little risk assessment and management/mitigation goes a long way.

The opinion: heavy getups are no more dangerous than anything else.

In comparison to.....

DEADLIFTS
Perceived risk: one will hurt a back or hamstring.

Experienced reality: it is not a movement I have fallen in love with, or devoted so much attention to detail of learning technique nuances. I have failed at least three heavy attempts. Each failure resulted in a 2 week recovery.

The lesson: prepare for movement properly, study technique, self-assess before lifting anything.

The opinion: though resulting in more injury and down time, I also would say the heavy deadlift is no more dangerous than any other movement.

THE REWARD OF ANY OF THESE FUNDAMENTAL MOVEMENTS DONE HEAVY:

Strength. For life.

 

[Molson]

Perspective of a heavy getup enthusiast....

HEAVY GETUP
Perceived risk: the bell will smash one’s head.

Experienced reality: I do at least one 48kg getup per training session. Have been doing 48kg getups for over a year on a regular basis. Have had to bail exactly three times. All three times with the slightest tilt away from ME, the bell has landed 2-3ft from any body part and rolled safely away.

The lesson: whatever exercise you go heavy in, you have to have an exit/fail plan. A little risk assessment and management/mitigation goes a long way.

The opinion: heavy getups are no more dangerous than anything else.

In comparison to.....

DEADLIFTS
Perceived risk: one will hurt a back or hamstring.

Experienced reality: it is not a movement I have fallen in love with, or devoted so much attention to detail of learning technique nuances. I have failed at least three heavy attempts. Each failure resulted in a 2 week recovery.

The lesson: prepare for movement properly, study technique, self-assess before lifting anything.

The opinion: though resulting in more injury and down time, I also would say the heavy deadlift is no more dangerous than any other movement.

THE REWARD OF ANY OF THESE FUNDAMENTAL MOVEMENTS DONE HEAVY:

Strength. For life.

I really like your opinion and can concur on the get up.

I lean towards heavy getups that are close to max. Throughr about 18 months of S&S I recall 2-3 moments when I had to drop the bell, it was always safe. Some thoughts:
- once not touching the ground, the off hand can be used to help change the trajectory of the falling bell if needed, but just push it away, don’t catch it
- past roll to elbow, one can be in position to ‘catch’ or at least de-accelerate the bell by catching it in the rack
- the half kneeling windmill is probably the most risky moment
- the risk of hitting your face occurs mostly when you let the bell rotate too much towards your off side. If you lock the bell position with handle parallel to you sagittal plane, the bell will always drop to the side of you body and not your face. Avoid rotating the bell during the lift at all times once you’ve set the alignment in your hand