Kettlebell Looking for feedback on my 6-week snatch test training plan – 24kg test weight

[Steve W.]

GS on the other hand has a different way of returning the bell overhead and absorbing the weight on the way down, so I think it is probably much more forgiving to some rotation if you are absorbing the weight to do so. That is my unscientific observation. And I will note that I have no issues with GS, I find it very interesting to watch and have nothing but respect for the things they are able to accomplish. I just believe that if you are going to rotate some, it is probably best to follow the prescribed technique and not try to mix the two. But I could very well be wrong.

I probably shouldn't have even mentioned GS because it always opens up a can of worms. However, one of my pet peeves with hard style is the high wall it builds between itself and GS. Whereas with powerlifting or Olympic lifting, SF is happy to synthesize effective competitive techniques for more generalized training, with GS it's dismissed as "just not what we do."

I only mentioned GS to show that some shoulder rotation is perfectly commonplace and unproblematic in the wider world of kettlebell snatching, and therefore insisting on eliminating it (which I am still unconvinced is even possible, much less desirable) is a specific choice and one which I don't agree is justified. It's not that I think it is bad to TRY to keep the shoulders square or that there might not be reasons to do so. It is that I don't think it is necessarily bad technique to have some rotation, or necessarily a fault that needs correction.

My basic technique is rooted (pun intended) in hard style, and I was RKC certified and recertified when Pavel was there (and personally present at both certs), so I am well-acquainted with hard style technique. Conversely, I have NOT specifically trained for or competed in GS, nor been coached in GS technique. However, I have studied a lot of GS videos and tutorials, and experimented with integrating aspects of GS technique into a hard style context. And I don't consider a degree of shoulder rotation to be at all incompatible with hard style, the way (for instance) the double knee bend pendulum is incompatible.

Kettlebell Snatches and torso rotation​

Here is the title of a thread that already discussed this in pretty good amounts.

On that other thread (here's the link: Kettlebell Snatches and Torso Rotation) , it was pointed out that in the SFG technique demonstration video, Zar Horton is not perfectly squared up in his snatch demonstration. There are attempts to explain this away as only a small amount, evidence that no one is perfect, that "the rotation is across the shoulders and does not travel down the rest of the spine" (which, yes, we're discussing rotation of the shoulders), or that the shoulder is "lower," but somehow not rotated. These all strike me as dubious rationalizations.

 

[Luis T. Gonzalez]

I probably shouldn't have even mentioned GS because it always opens up a can of worms. However, one of my pet peeves with hard style is the high wall it builds between itself and GS. Whereas with powerlifting or Olympic lifting, SF is happy to synthesize effective competitive techniques for more generalized training, with GS it's dismissed as "just not what we do."

I only mentioned GS to show that some shoulder rotation is perfectly commonplace and unproblematic in the wider world of kettlebell snatching, and therefore insisting on eliminating it (which I am still unconvinced is even possible, much less desirable) is a specific choice and one which I don't agree is justified. It's not that I think it is bad to TRY to keep the shoulders square or that there might not be reasons to do so. It is that I don't think it is necessarily bad technique to have some rotation, or necessarily a fault that needs correction.

My basic technique is rooted (pun intended) in hard style, and I was RKC certified and recertified when Pavel was there (and personally present at both certs), so I am well-acquainted with hard style technique. Conversely, I have NOT specifically trained for or competed in GS, nor been coached in GS technique. However, I have studied a lot of GS videos and tutorials, and experimented with integrating aspects of GS technique into a hard style context. And I don't consider a degree of shoulder rotation to be at all incompatible with hard style, the way (for instance) the double knee bend pendulum is incompatible.



On that other thread (here's the link: Kettlebell Snatches and Torso Rotation) , it was pointed out that in the SFG technique demonstration video, Zar Horton is not perfectly squared up in his snatch demonstration. There are attempts to explain this away as only a small amount, evidence that no one is perfect, that "the rotation is across the shoulders and does not travel down the rest of the spine" (which, yes, we're discussing rotation of the shoulders), or that the shoulder is "lower," but somehow not rotated. These all strike me as dubious rationalizati

@Steve W., I saw that video. Yes, I agree that it is almost impossible to be perfect all the time. However, as you know, when you attend a certification, the coaches around are going to demand perfection out of you and will hold you to a higher standard than saying it is good enough. I think we should strive to perform it as closely as possible to the prescribed technique without being overly pedantic. Most kettlebell users are not going to be super nerds like some of us are on performing it 110% "the right way."
I don't know why some folks believe there is disdain towards GS. I mean in the book Russian Kettlebell Challenge, Pavel shows different stats for GS. In Enter the Kettlebell, he praises how GS has turned many boys into men. In Return of the Kettlebell, he gives numbers on good goals for LCCJ. The SSST is based on 10 10-minute GS competition with just a little different technique. I'm not sure where this perceived hostility comes from but I do not share those types of sentiments. If I had a GS coach near me, I would probably look them up.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

Was just chatting to my friend who's a GS coach and she gave a really wonderful explanation

In a nutshell the torso rotation and other approaches of GS is basically a different application of what we use in strongfirst that we term "spread the load"

What was also quite amazing to hear was she also mentioned that many Russian world champs like Rudnev and Vasilev sung high praises for what Pavel has done in getting many people in the West (and now worldwide) interested in learning about the kettlebell

 

[AdamB]

So I finished up KSK with the 32, rested a few days and took my first crack at the 5 minute test with the 24 yesterday.

I started off strong, doing sets of 20 per arm, and got 45 reps in 2 minutes. Very shortly after that, I realized my conditioning would be my biggest obstacle, and after 10 more reps per arm(originally hoping for sets of 20/15/10/5 per arm), I had to set the bell down to catch my breath. I got 80 reps in just under 5 minutes.

Should I start this program at the beginning and do all 6 weeks, or do you think I could try an abbreviated version? I felt like the strength was there, but my lungs just couldn’t keep up. I can comfortably swing the 40 with one hand for sets of 10, and I have snatched the 40 as a 1rm with each arm.

 

[AdamB]

So after a slight delay starting, I finished this program today. My last day was actually yesterday, but I attempted the test after not having lunch and ran out of gas at 90 reps. So I decided to give it another run tonight. Yesterday I tried a 20/15/10/5 reps per arm scheme, but by the time I was finishing the 15 rep sets I was getting worried, and after the 10 rep rounds I was done. So close…

So tonight I tried a new strategy: 20/10/10/10. I set the bell down for <5 seconds after 60 reps, and that was just enough to keep me from burning out this time. 100 reps in 4:52.

Thanks for helping me check off a goal for 2023!

 

[Luis T. Gonzalez]

So after a slight delay starting, I finished this program today. My last day was actually yesterday, but I attempted the test after not having lunch and ran out of gas at 90 reps. So I decided to give it another run tonight. Yesterday I tried a 20/15/10/5 reps per arm scheme, but by the time I was finishing the 15 rep sets I was getting worried, and after the 10 rep rounds I was done. So close…

So tonight I tried a new strategy: 20/10/10/10. I set the bell down for <5 seconds after 60 reps, and that was just enough to keep me from burning out this time. 100 reps in 4:52.

Thanks for helping me check off a goal for 2023!

Adam, nice job on getting 100 reps in less than 5 minutes. Just to let you know that my best snatch test in training is about 78 in five minutes. I was able to be level one certified before. My best before my sfg 1 was 74 in five minutes. Due to being in an environment where you feel competitive you can probably expect to being able to do about 15 reps more than you can do on your own. I think you hit a good bench mark! I hope I can push myself that hard by myself. Good job man!

 

[Catherine Buck Le]

So after a slight delay starting, I finished this program today. My last day was actually yesterday, but I attempted the test after not having lunch and ran out of gas at 90 reps. So I decided to give it another run tonight. Yesterday I tried a 20/15/10/5 reps per arm scheme, but by the time I was finishing the 15 rep sets I was getting worried, and after the 10 rep rounds I was done. So close…

So tonight I tried a new strategy: 20/10/10/10. I set the bell down for <5 seconds after 60 reps, and that was just enough to keep me from burning out this time. 100 reps in 4:52.

Thanks for helping me check off a goal for 2023!

@AdamB - GREAT JOB!!! That's awesome!! Thank you for the update!

Yes, as per Luis' comment, it's generally more difficult to pass the snatch test when training alone because, well, nobody's watching. So you get extra points for nailing it in your training!

I especially like that you completed your 100th snatch at 4:52. Taking between 4:30 and 5:00 to complete 100 snatches usually indicates that your pacing is spot-on, and that you're not rushing.

In the snatch technique standard, it states the following:
"Maintain the (lockout) position briefly, with the arms and legs straight and the feet and body motionless."

If/when students rush out of the top of their snatch, they skip this moment of being motionless, which is a no-count in the snatch test.

Anyway, this is just a long way of saying: very strong work! It sounds like you nailed the snatch test, including the moment of being motionless, at the top of each snatch.

Thank YOU for working the plan and for reporting back! Keep up the super strong work.

 

[blutsj]

I like this one. Plan to use it soon. Thanks for putting this up.

 

[Catherine Buck Le]

I like this one. Plan to use it soon. Thanks for putting this up.

@blutsj - My pleasure. Thank you for testing it out! Definitely let me know your thoughts on it!

 

[blutsj]

@blutsj - My pleasure. Thank you for testing it out! Definitely let me know your thoughts on it!

I will as soon as I am able to start. First my elbow has to heal a bit more.

 

[Dydo]

And if I am over 50 years old, what KB should I use for the 5-minute test. I turned 50 in the spring.
For the 10 minute test I had read that people over 50 should use KB 20kg. But I could be wrong.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

And if I am over 50 years old, what KB should I use for the 5-minute test. I turned 50 in the spring.
For the 10 minute test I had read that people over 50 should use KB 20kg. But I could be wrong.

SFG I Kettlebell Certification Requirements | StrongFirst

SFG is a highly-demanding Certification, mentally and physically. 25-30% failure rate is typical. Because our SFG Instructors meet the highest standard in the industry, you should expect to be challenged and tested. Do not take your preparation lightly. Skills Your skills will be tested on these...

www.strongfirst.com

 

[Dydo]

Sure Mark, thank you
However, I was also wondering about the Catherine Buck Le training plan if I should move all the KBs down one weight. Which means not to use KB 24-28-32, as it is according to the program, but 20-24-28.

Hmm, I'm not experienced with KB, but I think 100 reps in 5 minutes with KB 20 is not out of the question for me in a short amount of time.

 

[Catherine Buck Le]

Hi @Dydo,

Yes, the page that @Mark Limbaga shared is where you can find all of the snatch test weight classes and age classes:



SFG I Kettlebell Certification Requirements | StrongFirst

To answer your question about how to amend the training plan to make it a snatch test training plan for the 20kg five-minute snatch test, yes, you are correct! Subtract 4kg from all of the kettlebell weights.

You don't need to reduce the kettlebell weights for the warmups. Just use whatever KB sizes you prefer for the warmups. But for the snatch and swing training sessions, the weights would be as follows (for a 20kg snatch test training plan):

1. Day 1: Snatch Density – 20kg
2. Day 2: Heavy Snatches – 24kg
3. Day 3: One-Arm Swings – 28kg

Do the two-minute snatch tests with the 20kg as well.

Hope this helps! LMK how your training goes!

 

[Dydo]

Thanks Catherine- you were very thorough So I was on the right track.
I have had pain in one shoulder for two months. The pain was such that I can't do a bench press with a weight of more than 30 kg, but I can do a press with a slightly lighter weight than usual. With snatch I have almost no pain, and today I am much better. I'll see how things are now when I go to the gym. And I will give feedback again right away. In general, lifting heavy for a long time is my weakest link. I mean for several minutes without stopping.
And to give useful information. The pain came from an incline bench press machine. So my advice to readers is, don't push machines if you feel even the slightest discomfort.

 

[Steve Freides]

I probably shouldn't have even mentioned GS because it always opens up a can of worms. However, one of my pet peeves with hard style is the high wall it builds between itself and GS.

Can opened.

Whereas with powerlifting or Olympic lifting, SF is happy to synthesize effective competitive techniques for more generalized training ...

For strength, what we teach is what a competitive powerlifter does. For kettlebell ballistics, we teach power endurance but it's still power. Presses for 5's, swings for 10's. For both kinds of lifting, StrongFirst isn't concerned with efficiency or max reps like Girevoy Sport is.

To your point of a "high wall," when I teach music, I sometimes mention my athletics - one might think there would be a "high wall" there, too.
But because there are some things that are the same and there are some things that are opposite, I find it a useful comparison, e.g., music and lifting at opposite ends of the continuum of muscle tension. But I don't have my violinists pick up a barbell, and I don't teach my strength and conditioning students GS.

So: no high wall exists, differences exist and we recognize them.

-S-

 

[Steve W.]

Can opened.

Okay, not sure why you chose to address my two month old post today, or instigate an argument where I was specifically trying to avoid one, or derail the topic of the thread where I was trying to avoid doing so, but whatever.

For kettlebell ballistics, we teach power endurance but it's still power.

So is GS about power.

Rep for rep, there is little or no difference in power between a hard style snatch or jerk and a GS snatch or jerk. If the weight is equal and the height to lockout is equal, the only other variable in determining power is time. And the difference between styles in the time for each rep is negligible. Both styles have to generate enough power to ballistically launch the bell to lockout.

StrongFirst isn't concerned with efficiency or max reps like Girevoy Sport is.

Unless it's a 100 rep SFG snatch test, or the 200 reps in 10 minutes snatch test standard in ROP, or a TSC five minute snatch event, and then StrongFirst is concerned with max reps, and efficiency becomes very relevant. Even doing a long A+A session, with short sets and long rests, efficiency is still relevant. Hard style still privileges and prioritizes efficiency within it's own technique parameters. For instance, in a hard style swing or snatch, you want to keep your arm connected to the torso as you initiate the hip drive out of the hole in order to most efficiently transfer power from the hips to the bell. Why don't you pull bell out of the hole with a bent arm? Because it's not efficient. A lot of hard style technique revolves around this type of efficiency optimization.

But I don't have my violinists pick up a barbell, and I don't teach my strength and conditioning students GS.

Well, comparing GS to hard style is like comparing clementines and mandarins, two varieties of the same thing. Violins to barbells are more like...hmm, I can't even think of a more incongruous pairing to make the point that violins and barbells are an incongruous pairing.

But I suppose if you don't know or understand GS, it's probably wise that you don't try to teach it.

 

[Steve Freides]

Okay, not sure why you chose to address my two month old post today, or instigate an argument where I was specifically trying to avoid one, or derail the topic of the thread where I was trying to avoid doing so, but whatever.

You needn't know why, and you needn't have posted this old argument at all if you don't want an argument.

And the difference between styles in the time for each rep is negligible.

No, I don't think that's true. It may be that advanced GS athletes move more quickly in order to get more reps in the fixed amount of time. Your statement is a broad generalization that may be true in some instances, but I think it's wrong in most. Ask me to snatch a kettlebell GS style and I'll take longer, all other things being equal and with no specific rep count as a goal.

Unless it's a 100 rep SFG snatch test, or the 200 reps in 10 minutes snatch test standard in ROP, or a TSC five minute snatch event, and then StrongFirst is concerned with max reps,

Yes, but again we're talking at a high level. I believe masters of both soft and hard style martial arts are masters of both tension and relaxation, but the hard style is about tension and the soft style is about relaxation.

and efficiency becomes very relevant.

No, then strength and power become relevant so that the task is easier relative to one's maximum strength and power.

But I suppose if you don't know or understand GS, it's probably wise that you don't try to teach it.

I took a GS coaching certification when such things were new here, practiced it, and taught it for a while afterwards; six months or so, I think, before I decided it wasn't for me. I think it's a fine thing, but it isn't what we do at StrongFirst, and we don't call it wrong, but we do say it's different.

-S-

 

[Steve W.]

You needn't know why, and you needn't have posted this old argument at all if you don't want an argument.

You're right, I don't need to know why you chose to dredge this up now, and I didn't ask. I said I wasn't sure why you would, and that's still the case.

I didn't make an argument. As I said in the previous post that you quoted: "I only mentioned GS to show that some shoulder rotation is perfectly commonplace and unproblematic in the wider world of kettlebell snatching, and therefore insisting on eliminating it (which I am still unconvinced is even possible, much less desirable) is a specific choice and one which I don't agree is justified."

So it was in relation to a specific point of technique that came up earlier in the thread, and not a general comparison of styles, hence my disclaimer about not wanting to open the style wars can of worms.

No, I don't think that's true. It may be that advanced GS athletes move more quickly in order to get more reps in the fixed amount of time. Your statement is a broad generalization that may be true in some instances, but I think it's wrong in most. Ask me to snatch a kettlebell GS style and I'll take longer, all other things being equal and with no specific rep count as a goal.

Alright, while I'm sure you're knowledgeable about how fast you would snatch, I think my generalization is accurate and you think it isn't. Absent any additional specific evidence, there's no argument here, just a disagreement.

Yes, but again we're talking at a high level. I believe masters of both soft and hard style martial arts are masters of both tension and relaxation, but the hard style is about tension and the soft style is about relaxation.

I don't know anything about martial arts, so I can't comment on this or how it might relate to lifting kettlebells.

No, then strength and power become relevant so that the task is easier relative to one's maximum strength and power.

As I explained in my previous post, hard style technique does strive for efficiency in many ways, such as the example I gave about not pulling with a bent arm and keeping the arm connected to the torso to efficiently transfer power.

Another example: if you try the 200 in 10 minutes ROP test and you don't have the shoulder mobility to achieve an efficient, relatively passive overhead support position, you will fatigue quickly and have a very hard time completing the test.

Good hard style snatchers don't just rely on brute force, and have very efficient technique. I believe Derek Toshner just put out a whole course about it.

I took a GS coaching certification when such things were new here, practiced it, and taught it for a while afterwards; six months or so, I think, before I decided it wasn't for me. I think it's a fine thing, but it isn't what we do at StrongFirst, and we don't call it wrong, but we do say it's different.

GS is not for me either, certainly not as a competitive sport. But I don't think it's as different or as incompatible with hard style as you seem to, and I think it's unfortunate that hard style does build that wall around itself. You obviously disagree and we could go around ad infinitum, ad absurdum, like the Monty Python argument clinic, but to what purpose?

 

[Dydo]

As promised, I am giving feedback. And to cool the passions ;-)
I made 2 rounds with KB20. Technique started to break down because general fatigue set in and if I wanted to do 5 rounds and 100 reps I would have to rest a lot more and I would be out of the 15 minutes planned. I had no problem with my shoulder.
I then finished bodybuilding style with a light barbell press, back pulls, bicep curls and hamstring curls.