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Kettlebell Maffetone running to compliment S+S

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vegpedlr said:
For the MAF test, keep all conditions as much as possible the same. Be sure to stay under MAF at all times. Walk if you need to.
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To quote Han Solo, "Well that's the real trick, isn't it?"

My MAF number is 117, soon to be 116. It wasn't that long ago where I considered 120 bpm to be recovered enough to press on. Has Maffetone come up with any further thoughts on people over 60? I'm not in the type of condition as avid endurance guys like vegpedlr, offwidth and others on this thread, but I'm not chopped liver either.
 
Denny Phillips said:
To quote Han Solo, "Well that's the real trick, isn't it?"

My MAF number is 117, soon to be 116. It wasn't that long ago where I considered 120 bpm to be recovered enough to press on. Has Maffetone come up with any further thoughts on people over 60? I'm not in the type of condition as avid endurance guys like vegpedlr, offwidth and others on this thread, but I'm not chopped liver either.
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You’ll have to search his site, but I know I’ve read from him that at both ends of the age spectrum the 180 formula falls short. For teens he just gives a blanket number, 160, I think. For oldsters, it’s trickier since most folks have accumulated health issues. I’d say 120 is probably fine if you’ve been training consistently without issues. Doing MAF tests will give some feedback.
 
No harm intended, just more folksy than Masters. I wish I was as strong as many such folk around here.

As an addendum, Maffetone himself didn’t use the 180 formula when he worked with athletes. He just watched them run at increasing paces while wearing a HRM. Based on their gait he determined their MAF. Collecting data on many people, he looked for a formula that could approximate it so people could coach themselves. It’s meant to be pretty conservative, as fitting with his overall philosophy.
 
No harm taken. I usually improve enough on the tests to justify staying the course. What gets me are the times when I want to ramp it up a bit. If I want to venture into AnT I use 85-90% of my max heart rate which at this point is 136. The 85-90% of max heart rate is the more conservative of the formulas but I'm training for health as opposed to competition. Higher intensity stuff hasn't been an issue, I just do some 30-40m "sprints" or run some hills. How much AnT has been the vexing part for me.

It's much more simple to design training cycles for my athletes than for myself and always has been. I tend to overthink things. My default measure has long been resting heart rate so maybe I should be more dutiful in checking it.
 
How do you measure AeT? Based on my experience racing, the 180 formula probably sets mine a little low, though my training experience is that it’s still useful.
 
Slight side note with MAF. I had chronic issues with left ham/glute, for 17 yrs. I started MAF runs in Feb. 2019. Three-four months later, good as new.
 
I received my HRM and tentatively set out on my first MAF run with a little knowledge gained from the helpful people on this site, and to be honest my feedback would be that I maybe think it is not for me. Not because it is a bad method or anything, but because myself as an individual introduces too many variables for it to be effective.
If you were running on a flat athletics track in a warm location under controlled conditions, with constant heart rate (I.e. as maffetone originally trained his runners) I can see it working well, but it does not translate well to running in the real world.
The basic problem I found is that heart rate is not constant. Running at a constant rate off road and hilly is difficult.
If there is a hill or you have to stop and start say for a gate during the run your heart rate changes. Heart rates in the real world (which has more accelerations, changes in effort due to terrain etc.) result in a much slower pace and a different gait.
Also I live in a country where there could be as much as 10°C change in temperature from morning to evening and I run at all times.
When I went my run today after work, stupidly I had my coffee pick me up prior to it, I guess this may have affected my heart rate too.
Running in different weathers must be a variable too which would affect results. The nice warm, dry summer evenings, opposed to wet slidy Autumnal leaves underfoot must be a negative variable.
I think I need to seek out a program to follow that a recreational runner may use to build base fitness, as this is all I really want and throw it in when I'm out with the dog. The equivalent of a "Simple" program for runners. I thought MAF was it, or am I just not understanding what its function intended results are?
 
Lotto said:
I received my HRM and tentatively set out on my first MAF run with a little knowledge gained from the helpful people on this site, and to be honest my feedback would be that I maybe think it is not for me. Not because it is a bad method or anything, but because myself as an individual introduces too many variables for it to be effective.
If you were running on a flat athletics track in a warm location under controlled conditions, with constant heart rate (I.e. as maffetone originally trained his runners) I can see it working well, but it does not translate well to running in the real world.
The basic problem I found is that heart rate is not constant. Running at a constant rate off road and hilly is difficult.
If there is a hill or you have to stop and start say for a gate during the run your heart rate changes. Heart rates in the real world (which has more accelerations, changes in effort due to terrain etc.) result in a much slower pace and a different gait.
Also I live in a country where there could be as much as 10°C change in temperature from morning to evening and I run at all times.
When I went my run today after work, stupidly I had my coffee pick me up prior to it, I guess this may have affected my heart rate too.
Running in different weathers must be a variable too which would affect results. The nice warm, dry summer evenings, opposed to wet slidy Autumnal leaves underfoot must be a negative variable.
I think I need to seek out a program to follow that a recreational runner may use to build base fitness, as this is all I really want and throw it in when I'm out with the dog. The equivalent of a "Simple" program for runners. I thought MAF was it, or am I just not understanding what its function intended results are?
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You are right it’s not for everyone.

Bear in mind some of the toughest and hardest mountain athletes and ultra runners in the world use this method (or a variation thereof...)
 
@offwidth. Do they train on a track though or train in the environment that they run? I'd be interested to learn how they may have adapted MAF to a mountainous environment. At the minute, for myself I know that I am introducing too many variables to adequately call it MAF training.
 
If you are interested in this type of training I suggest that you get a copy of ‘Training for the Uphill Athlete’. Steve and Scott can explain all of the science behind this stuff much better than I can.

For me I am not really that interested in what’s inside the box as long as it works.

I routinely ride and run both off road and on road in an area that has trails and roads with well over 2,000m elevation gain. (not including all the ups and downs). And up to 2,700m in altitude. During summer months it can reach +46C or higher...
(I have also run in -40C)

I do a good percentage of my training at or below AeT (basically MAF) but not all.

While I certainly don’t count myself in the aforementioned group of toughest and hardest mountain athletes... I have been at this gig for close to 5 decades and I can hold my own

Like I said earlier you might need to walk the hills to start. The old saying about ‘walk before you run’ is often times applicable...

You also may be suffering from Aerobic Deficiency Syndrome. (also see TFTUA or Dr. Phil Maffetone)
This comes from athletes who overuse high intensity training methods. They may have a powerful anaerobic system, but their aerobic metabolism has become detrained because of that.

This is a proven method that works for many, but it takes time, patience, and the willingness to adapt to what might possibly be a different way of thinking.
 
It absolutely works in the real world. I never train on a track, always roads and trails. You do have to select courses that are within your ability, which is much easier on foot than MTB. The training HR is a range of MAF minus 10. Anywhere in that 10 beat range is fine. If you hit the max, slow down. Walking is fine. In time you get faster, and results come quickly.

It’s true that it’s not for everyone. It takes patience and discipline. But it also pleasant and relaxing.
 
vegpedlr said:
But it also pleasant and relaxing.
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I agree. I tell my wife that I'm going out for a noodle and two or three times a week I hop on one of my bikes for a few hours and just explore. Slow uphill, fast downhill, the odd 2 or 3 second sprint after a stoplight or a downhill to get the HR back into range again. It's quite meditative and relaxing. Of course occasionally it's fun to go out and kill it too but I really enjoy these MAF rides. It feels like you've got no agenda but it's actually the opposite.
 
When I first started with the Maffetone Method it was after being sick for awhile and losing a lot of fitness. I heard him interviewed and had an a ha! moment. THAT is what Mark Allen was talking about. So I decided to give it a try. What was the risk? No way I was going to train regularly and get worse. Every workout became enjoyable and I improved. It’s my sincere belief that it’s right for just about everyone. Why go hard if you don’t have to? Only athletes with specific performance goals need to.

I had a similar a ha! when I first tried Easy Strength.
 
vegpedlr said:
How do you go about doing this?
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You need a blood lactate analyzer. After being fully warmed up you then gradually work up to your AeT in stages taking a blood sample every so often. (about every 10bpm) Basically when you reach 2mMol/L you have arrived at your AeT

A gas exchange test is best, but needs to be done in a lab. I have never gone that far.

As far as the stress test goes... best done in the lab (or Doctors office) as well. You can self administer these as well (as I have) but I would never recommend doing it.
 
@Don Fairbanks. Thank you for the article. A lot of information in there to digest. I'm going to give a few more runs in MAF style a go. It was a strange sensation tonight trying to run and look at your wrist whilst trying to look forward and then adjust speed/gait accordingly. I certainly was not smooth. I think I gave myself a small interval session. Hopefully I can settle on a technique fairly soon.
 
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